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Looking back at how Signal works

signal.org

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Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#291

Post by Well_hello »

phyzome wrote: post #288
Aachen wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beautifully mediocre, but yeah it mostly works. (Never been able to use Signal so I can't compare, but Riot's encryption was completely broken until a few weeks ago, and now there is only the occasional "hold on, gotta fetch keys for 10 seconds" and slow scrolling up, etc. It can't compete with something like Telegram in terms of UX; it is infinitely better for privacy but it doesn't "work beautifully".)

It was a non-stop shitfest of buggy encryption and broken UX last I tried. A group of us tried using it for a bit and gave up because we kept losing messages, couldn't figure out which messages were "secure" in various ways, and had confusing horizon effects where only some people could see some messages. That was a couple months ago. Maybe it has improved massively since then? I guess I'll try it again later this ye…

No idea what problems you have, but I have been using encryption heavily since it got enabled by default. And I have never had any issue with it - even the transfer of encryption keys in the background to verified 3rd party clients worked like a charm.

But, also this experience may not have been possible before may (when they released a big update with e2ee by default).

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#292

Post by Well_hello »

hr2016 wrote: post #51
StavrosK wrote: post #45

I love Signal and use it as much as I can, but I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. It won't show me messages until it syncs everything (so I can't even see old messages while things sync), and, what's worse, it skips messages, and multi-device just doesn't work. My laptop just shows "Message could not be decrypted" until I delete everything and reset. I'm not sure why…

I do get the occasional missing messages in the desktop client but what I notice most is that it gets unstable and weird when there is a update available (which I don't get notified about). Desktop and laptop with Ubuntu btw, signal installed via snap if I recall correctly. Have you checked if yours is up to date?

are you on matrix.org? could have been the issue - but they should appear at a later moment, though

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#293

Post by Well_hello »

dbg31415 wrote: post #222

I want to love Signal, but it's just so meh. * Message sync is like non-existent. Messages on my phone or laptop aren't kept in sync at all. Delete one one place, they don't delete in both. * Let me edit messages, like every other message platform. I also want to be able to delete messages from the group. When I delete it deletes locally but not for the group, not even between my own devices I don't think. This sucks…

you are just using the wrong tool

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#294

Post by Well_hello »

false-mirror wrote: post #22
rb808 wrote: post #8

matrix and riot is awesome open source alternative. Awesome API too.

They pair really well together too. At the moment Signal really thrives at replacing texts (ephemeral one-to-one chats), while riot excels at team communication.

actually Riot is not worse at replacing texts..

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#295

Post by Aachen »

Well_hello wrote: post #291
phyzome wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a non-stop shitfest of buggy encryption and broken UX last I tried. A group of us tried using it for a bit and gave up because we kept losing messages, couldn't figure out which messages were "secure" in various ways, and had confusing horizon effects where only some people could see some messages. That was a couple months ago. Maybe it has improved massively since then? I guess I'll try it again later this ye…

No idea what problems you have, but I have been using encryption heavily since it got enabled by default. And I have never had any issue with it - even the transfer of encryption keys in the background to verified 3rd party clients worked like a charm. But, also this experience may not have been possible before may (when they released a big update with e2ee by default).

> No idea what problems you have, but I have been using encryption heavily since it got enabled by default.

So like three weeks.

They wrote:

> That was a couple months ago.

And in a sibling comment I also confirmed the issues before the new encryption stuff, but no issues after (not with the encryption part at least).

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#296

Post by hyyypr »

Aachen wrote: post #246
jcul wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiousity, did you ever try keybase? It always struck me that usability as well as security were their primary focus. And I think they did the whole key management / chain of trust thing really well. Hopefully none of that changes now that they've been acquired by zoom.

Keybase is not end to end encrypted and can't be compared to Riot or Signal. Keybase claims that it is, but it's a lie that nobody verified: https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/222055/how-can-...

Excellent investigation on that SO question. I had no idea, thank you for sharing.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#297

Post by lsiebert »

brnt wrote: post #207
lsiebert wrote: post #181

Lately I've been wishing Signal had a bridgefy type mesh mode that enabled operation peer to peer over wifi direct or bluetooth, either directly or via a mesh of such devices. First I think it would be useful at protests, to preserve privacy (and whatever side of the political divide you are on, I hope we agree that covert government surveillance and tracking of people at a protest is wrong, here, in HK, or wherever)…

You're looking for the https://briarproject.org

Unfortunately Briar only handles direct connections, and doesn't work on IOS.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#298

Post by hr2016 »

Well_hello wrote: post #292
hr2016 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do get the occasional missing messages in the desktop client but what I notice most is that it gets unstable and weird when there is a update available (which I don't get notified about). Desktop and laptop with Ubuntu btw, signal installed via snap if I recall correctly. Have you checked if yours is up to date?

are you on matrix.org? could have been the issue - but they should appear at a later moment, though

Signal with matrix.org? Not that I know of.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#299

Post by windthrown »

billme wrote: post #229
windthrown wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but remember that Signal (the app developer) is an LLC. The 990s may eventually be posted on the Signal Foundation website if they ever finish it: https://signalfoundation.org/

Thanks, good point, was aware of that, but others might not be; never seen a good explanation for their legal structure, both as it relates to the present & future. I have checked both URLs for 990s, only way I found it was via a link in the footer of Signal’s Wikipedia page.

ProPublica's database is my go-to for 990s. Only the 2018 form so far: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/824...

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#300

Post by solinent »

loeg wrote: post #275
solinent wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Signal Messenger, LLC, is a software organization that was founded by Moxie Marlinspike and Brian Acton in 2018 Did you google it? You're simply wrong. It is open-source as it was, I didn't dispute that, but they are liable for their users if this bill passes, and they will easily go bankrupt. If there's no commercial entity, then liability falls to the developers most likely--whose identity can be obscured since t…

No; I didn't have to Google it because I've been paying attention to Signal for the better part of the last decade. I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken. If you've googled it, surely you're aware of the Signal Foundation[1], the 501(c)(3) parent organization of the LLC. And while OWS/Signal Messenger did not have formal non-profit status prior to the Signal Foundation, it was never acting as a for-profit entity[2]:…

I've been paying attention as well, I've been using it since the early days, I also have an M&A lawyer by my side.

The Signal Foundation is responsible for all costs associated with the project--without it the project wouldn't function.

OWS was also largely a corporation, but it wasn't require for TextSecure to operate--a key difference.

> And while OWS/Signal Messenger did not have formal non-profit status prior to the Signal Foundation, it was never acting as a for-profit entity[2]:

A corporation, non-profit or not, is still a corporation. Based on my knowledge of full-cycle accounting for non-profits, they tend to make more profit, they just pay less taxes.

Having a non-commercial parent doesn't mean your business is non-commercial, Signal Messenger LLC is the corp which is associated with Signal Messenger. Signal Messenger could offer private equity, since Signal Foundation is not the exclusive shareholder.

I have an M&A lawyer right here if you want me to ask him.

In any case, I doubt they have enough funding to do this in a standard donation-based non-profit, it seems like there's a non-profit which is used to funnel money to the commercial entity, Signal Messenger LLC.

It's a standard structure, I'm sure, but it's definitely not your standard non-profit.

I'm more concerned about the coloquial use of commerical in any case--does the corp make profits or not, not whether they pay tax or not. I'd say they're looking to transition into a fully non-commercial entity, but for the purposes of this thread they are still a corporation and can still be held liable for their users' actions--in this case the app can still operate without a formal legal entity, but it would be removed from app stores, I'm sure.

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