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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#291

Post by krapp »

senderista wrote: post #272
mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

Civil disobedience != violence. Illegal action is sometimes justified. Violence never is.

I'm sorry, but that rings hollow in a country with the Second Amendment and a gun culture that likes to wax poetic about watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants, or preach that school shootings are simply the price we pay for a free state.

You cannot tell a group of people that violence must be beneath them when they're facing a system that employs violence against them with impunity and often bends over backwards to justify it, in a culture which holds violence as one of the foundations of liberty itself. That would be suicidal.

Violence should be a last resort, but it can't ever be off the table, not in the US.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#292

Post by manfredo »

zo1 wrote: post #183
runawaybottle wrote: post #92

What are some actual laws we can pass from this situation? I was thinking at the very least to get a citizen right where you can request to have any encounter with the police recorded. ‘Officer I request my right to have this encounter recorded’.

My crazy ideas to stop this and violence/law-breaking in general. This should cause a huge reduction in these issues we claim we're having. 1. Body cams mandatory for all police inside & outside of the station, and they stay on 100% of the time and batteries should last the whole shift. No ifs/buts/maybes. If the need arises, bathroom breaks can be edited out after the fact. 2. National ID card, in all states and man…

So the police never arrest someone for non-violent crimes, and the only disincentive is to get fined.

This basically just gives people a license to steal whatever they want and stalk and harass anyone they want, so long as they don't lay a finger on a person. The only consequences are fines, and non-payment of a fine is not a violent crime and thus not cause for arrest.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#293

Post by jessaustin »

mmsimanga wrote: post #40
mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

Not an American. Can you share one or two reforms that you would like implemented. It is hard to grasp what is really going on from a distance.

Americans would be safer, happier, and more prosperous if tomorrow we had half the number of police we have today. The various misguided "entrepreneurial" policies like forfeiture and federal drug war grants have swelled the numbers beyond what the populace can tolerate. We are a fairly violent nation, when compared to Europe (though not when compared to other colonized nations, like nearly everywhere in the western hemisphere), but for the most part violence levels are due to environmental and demographic factors, not police activity. The only exception, the Drug War, is a case in which increased police activity increases violence. So, far fewer police, please.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#294

Post by harryh »

syshum wrote: post #266
rayiner wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the immediate aftermath of that showed deep disagreement about “what to do about that problem.” Leftists want to dismantle the “systems of oppression” they perceive produces that result. Libertarians want to get rid of qualified immunity and police unions. Conservatives are taken aback by the rioting and violence and for them the immediate need maintaining social order has overtaken the more long term desire…

As normal, libertarians have the correct and rational solution to the problem :)

I think the libertarian suggestions are certainly part of the solution but I don't think they're sufficient on their own. History shows us that racism is remarkably resistant to market forces.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#295

Post by throwaway894345 »

TomBombadildoze wrote: post #224
throwaway894345 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People haven't been voting, which is why it hasn't worked.

Many of the people for whom the system "hasn't worked" have only had the statute right to vote for a generation, yet still face de facto barriers to exercise their right. For them, the system has never worked . You keep spouting bullshit absolutes but don't seem to realize (or you're just unwilling to accept) that there are effectively two systems; a more of less functioning system for people like you, and one in nam…

> You keep spouting bullshit absolutes but don't seem to realize (or you're just unwilling to accept) that there are effectively two systems; a more of less functioning system for people like you, and one in name only for the disenfranchised.

Look, you’re not here in good faith. That’s cool, go off all you want, but I’m not here for it. Find someone else.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#296

Post by aSplash0fDerp »

aSplash0fDerp wrote: post #51

This really has become a convoluted issue about identity, coming from the perspective of a caucasion male. Having no direct or indirect involvement with "class warfare" and "culture clashes", I think most individuals are trusting that government representatives (who many want to vote out anyways) will not milk a crisis for every penny, but instead inact meaningful reform. Once we see autonomous delivery of work (phys…

Just downvotes and no retort?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/george-floyd-cup-foods-police...

It was all over a shop owner losing $20.

Fortunately, creative WFA solutions will allow individual freedoms to blossom again.

Time is still the most valuable Commodity in the 1st world.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#297

Post by leereeves »

danharaj wrote: post #289
randyrand wrote: post #279

Police brutality is a real issue. It's less clear that racial bias in policing is a statistically significant issue, however, when accounting for obvious things. If someone has numbers that tell a different story I am all ears. Here are mine when I attempted to find it for myself: black arrests (all crimes) a year: 2.2 million white arrests (all crimes) a year: 5.6 million https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/cr…

Laws are disproportionately overenforced on black communities. Your numbers are collected after a large amount of the bias is already baked in and collected by the people perpetrating the bias. Maybe that didn't occur to you. You're just asking questions right?

How do the numbers shake out if we consider only homicides, where selective enforcement should be less of a factor?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#298

Post by randyrand »

danharaj wrote: post #289
randyrand wrote: post #279

Police brutality is a real issue. It's less clear that racial bias in policing is a statistically significant issue, however, when accounting for obvious things. If someone has numbers that tell a different story I am all ears. Here are mine when I attempted to find it for myself: black arrests (all crimes) a year: 2.2 million white arrests (all crimes) a year: 5.6 million https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/cr…

Laws are disproportionately overenforced on black communities. Your numbers are collected after a large amount of the bias is already baked in and collected by the people perpetrating the bias. Maybe that didn't occur to you. You're just asking questions right?

I welcome more data that has less sampling bias, but without some attempt to quantify the amount of sampling bias here we don’t know if it has a big impact on this data.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#299

Post by Consultant32452 »

harryh wrote: post #294
syshum wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As normal, libertarians have the correct and rational solution to the problem :)

I think the libertarian suggestions are certainly part of the solution but I don't think they're sufficient on their own. History shows us that racism is remarkably resistant to market forces.

It's not necessary to eliminate racism. Imagine if the citizens of a community had the power to pull some of their money away from ineffective police departments to hold them accountable. There could be competing police forces, all run by the government, and the citizens could fund the ones they prefer, not unlike charter schools allow parents to fund the schools they prefer, and food stamps allow the poor to buy the food they want from the grocery store they prefer.

If your police department sucks, but the one neighboring one is good, you could choose to move your funding to the other police department who would expand their operations to cover more territory.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#300

Post by [deleted] »

randyrand wrote: post #279

Police brutality is a real issue. It's less clear that racial bias in policing is a statistically significant issue, however, when accounting for obvious things. If someone has numbers that tell a different story I am all ears. Here are mine when I attempted to find it for myself: black arrests (all crimes) a year: 2.2 million white arrests (all crimes) a year: 5.6 million https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/cr…

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