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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#291

Post by [deleted] »

nicholas73 wrote: post #283
paxys wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot more cases which are the exact opposite. People who have done well in school, extra curriculars and more, but are held back by a meaningless test.

I don't have perspective, maybe, but what is exactly holding back someone who does well in school to score higher on a test? It's not like you don't get to retake it if it was a fluke. If it's the test fee, just allow a retake for free like a gas station smog check offer. Or, a college can bucket grades and test scores separately and just take whichever is higher.

[deleted]

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#292

Post by dominostars »

jariel wrote: post #261
ciarannolan wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This pragmatically means the administrators are free to pursue their biased and ideological policy objectives. This is the express purpose of this change.

This is probably true, and really it hurts. In this Trumpian era we like to talk about the 'integrity of institutions' and yet so many are boldly willing to do away with the results of baseline objectivity when it doesn't suit their agenda. Because of course, the 'agenda' is what matters, not Truth or Objectivity. Hmmm ... I wonder if we could have a place, where like ... 'free thinkers' could be free to talk about i…

> In this Trumpian era we like to talk about the 'integrity of institutions' and yet so many are boldly willing to do away with the results of baseline objectivity when it doesn't suit their agenda.

Except that the SAT and ACT have been shown over and over again to not be objective, so calling it "baseline objectivity" misses the point entirely.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#293

Post by yhoiseth »

gowld wrote: post #241
bmaisonp wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some sense more fair, but also in some senses less kind and less efficient. Let me give an anecdotal view as someone who had a brush with it at another big state school. University of Washington (Seattle) has a similar system in which some majors are 'capacity constrained' meaning some students would be directly admitted to the program, but the vast majority of them would only enter the major program after being a…

Or they could hire more teachers. Why is education competitive and exclusive? It makes no sense. The whole thing pays for itself in value creation.

Unfortunately, it probably doesn’t pay for itself in value creation (“Human Capital Theory”). If you’re interested in this topic, I’d recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_Against_Education.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#294

Post by mnky9800n »

gowld wrote: post #241
bmaisonp wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some sense more fair, but also in some senses less kind and less efficient. Let me give an anecdotal view as someone who had a brush with it at another big state school. University of Washington (Seattle) has a similar system in which some majors are 'capacity constrained' meaning some students would be directly admitted to the program, but the vast majority of them would only enter the major program after being a…

Or they could hire more teachers. Why is education competitive and exclusive? It makes no sense. The whole thing pays for itself in value creation.

Why have two or three instructors when you could have one associate Dean! The associate Dean even comes with a PhD! Never mind that it's in "educational leadership". That's the equivalent to a real topic. And it pays better too.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#295

Post by mnky9800n »

barry-cotter wrote: post #275
gowld wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me learning doesn't hurt you.

But lowering the standards does. And that’s the only way you’re going from a pass rate of a third to 100%. You might be able to double pass rates to two thirds by putting many more resources into teaching but that costs money or comes out of research time/teacher satisfaction. You learning does hurt the top of the class if you’re a marginal student. Students on the verge of failure take up a lot more instructional an…

What's wrong with spending more time on helping struggling students?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#296

Post by distances »

gamblor956 wrote: post #74
Shoue wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland, often touted as the best in education, does not use SAT. The same can be said for many other European countries with excellent education. Are you implying there is no correlation? Have you looked at their systems before making a claim such as "haven't come up with anything better"?

I have never heard of Finland being touted as the best in education, especially not at the college or post-graduate levels. What many countries do, unlike the US, is having life-defining entrance exams. Unlike the SAT/ACT which are just one factor of many, these tests determine whether a student gets in to a university or not. The SAT may not be a great test, but at least it's not the sole factor in determining admis…

> I have never heard of Finland being touted as the best in education, especially not at the college or post-graduate levels.

Finland has been the poster child in pre-university education now for almost two decades due to the good PISA results. Maybe less so recently as Finland's results have been in a slight decline.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#297

Post by yhoiseth »

> The road to Thursday’s vote has been full of twists and turns. Ms. Napolitano began the review of the use of the SAT in 2018, that prompted a faculty committee began a review of the use of the exam. In February it recommended that the system continue to use the exams, arguing that applicants’ scores on the SAT and ACT still serve as better predictors of first-year performance than high school grades.

I think I would have followed that recommendation.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#298

Post by bradlys »

harryh wrote: post #62
usui wrote: post #23

Yes, finally! As someone who underwent the standardized testing grind, I have been waiting for an announcement like this by a university system for years. I understand that there needs to be some standardized way to objectively score students, because allocating college seats to students seems to be an induced scarcity problem. However, as someone who scored highly and is currently studying computer science at UC Ber…

I ultimately feel like my time was wasted because the tests have almost no relation to any of my studies in class. The SAT is basically a somewhat disguised IQ test and I'm quite confident that intelligence was related to the studies in your classes.

I wouldn’t really say it’s an IQ test. After all, if you don’t know the material then you won’t get a good score. Lack of knowledge doesn’t mean you have a low IQ. If you didn’t brush up on vocab specific to the SAT then you’re gonna get a bad score. Same with the writing portion and especially math. (It’s mostly math trivia, not proofs or anything creative)

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#299

Post by hooande »

rayiner wrote: post #156
_23sd wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry that "holistic" admissions in universities with highly competitive admissions are already disadvantaging groups that aren't culturally aligned with university administrators and their donors: Asian Americans, people from the South and rural areas regardless of race, and people brought up in religious households where most time spent on "extracurricular activities" is church-related. I personally think that pe…

> I personally think that people pushing against standardized tests and for holistic admissions have good intentions and aren't trying to systemically ensure that all students at prestigious and elite universities in the US talk, think, and act like them, but I can't blame anyone for thinking so. I’m not sure I feel like giving the benefit of the doubt here. I think folks are acting in good faith, no doubt. But they…

some ideas are dangerous to society, flat out. ie, "the institution of slavery was good because it's part of my cultural heritage".

University admissions are not just an issue of personal merit. It isn't something that you're owed because you did X, Y and Z. Colleges are trying to build a positive culture, just like startups, and that can involve rejecting skilled people with fringe beliefs.

Not to mention, who wants to pay $30,000/yr and have their kid be roommates with a holocaust denier?

People can believe whatever they want. They just can't work and go to school wherever they want

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#300

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

geomark wrote: post #100
awillen wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm obviously speaking about the SAT/ACT in the context of the US system. The entire Finnish education system is extremely different than the one in the US - to say that they don't use the SAT and have better educational outcomes while ignoring everything else is just not a valid comparison. It would be equally valid to say "Finland teaches school in Finnish and they have better outcomes, so we should be teaching sch…

There some people who assert that it is in fact the Finnish language that gives them an advantage in early schooling, that the language is much more regular and easier to learn that it gives school children something like a 2 year advantage over English learners. Not disagreeing with you at all. Just wanted to point out another facet of the debate.

On the other hand, it is sometimes said (in folk circles, I'll admit, I haven't seen papers about this) that the good performance of Chinese students is related to having to learn a very difficult writing system, which acts as a cognitive "exercise" or stimulation.

So what's better to learn as a child, an easy to learn language or a really difficult one? Or maybe an easy one orally but a difficult writing system? I have no idea, but it's an interesting question indeed.

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