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Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

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Re: Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

#291
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of all the fuckery, imagine if the government just sent everyone a monthly cheque with the only criteria that they are a living breathing adult with a US address. Universal trickle up.

When you believe that all humans will act in an honest and moral way, this is certainly the solution that appears to work best. Full disclosure: I'm with you, I think this is probably what will need to be seriously considered in the future. Counter argument: Won't this just encourage fuckery from the citizenry? Won't they just be encouraged to game the system (have more kids, take care of people to intercept their ch…

Yes of course. No matter what you do some percentage will try to game it, however the simpler the system the less complexity there is to hide in (fewer attack vectors to protect). There are likely a finite, very small, number of ways to game this that we'd need to guard against. Let's start a list, because I really don't think there's that much to worry about!

- More kids? OK that's probably good for an aging society, but do we even dole out money based on dependents? Should the government be in the position of subsidizing people having kids in the first place? Since it's adults who are directly impacted (losing income from a job) that's who we target. We can always address dependents through another program if needed, but that'll require a whole other level of complexity.

- Intercepting cheques? Are we talking about a subset of elderly or disabled who can't cash their own cheques? How do we handle social security cheques today? Maybe we would need more measures to handle this issue due to scale?

- Illegal immigrants? This one is a political quagmire. In my opinion they deserve the same benefits, but that's a very controversial opinion, and not something I'd want bogging down immediate assistance to everyone else. Ideally this is something the entire country would get to vote on, understanding that it will have a huge impact on a lot of industries.

Re: Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

#292

Gotta ask whether the banking system makes sense in its current form. - Part of it is actually a utility. Payments, sending money from one place to another, making sure there's an account at the other end of that number. Everyone needs this, yet being a huge international network there isn't a whole lot that one bank offers that another cannot. - Part of it is deciding who to lend money to. Makes sense for the bank t…

Money laundering is still pretty easy to do. If you go through the proper channels and know the reporting laws, it's easy to avoid altogether. Although time consuming and you deal with swaths of physical cash, it's not impractical. You could honestly pay high school students like $20 to convert $1000 cash to a money order or something addressed to your company. They "pay" the company for it's "services" and you wash it through loans and other stuff.

Now the trick is to manage it in a way that a prosecutor couldn't convince a jury of structuring. Have an accountant fabricate records and mix it with legitimate purchases and expenses. It's essentially a front...but what corporation isnt one?

Re: Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You outline the problem very well. The banking sector has an ENORMOUS amount of power over the economy/society in a way that no other industry does because it literally has the ability to create money out of thin air (by loaning it into existence). The banking industry is the arbiter and credit in our society and decides where money get allocated. This would be fine if it were their own money, but it's not - it's our…

Finance is a very important industry that adds a lot of value. If you get a student loan, you can go to university tomorrow and earn more in a few years, that's much more valuable than spending 20yrs at McDonald's earning nothing and saving very slowly to pay for your degree upfront as you would have to otherwise. Ditto mortgages. Ditto getting a car or starting a business or basically anything finance permits. The g…

> If it wasn't useful, people wouldn't be paying for the services it provides, they're all optional.

Honestly, in my opinion this could not be a more misinformed take on the reality of banking. Today there exist no alternatives to commercial money (private bank debt), because our governments' demand taxes in it.

Finance and banking are also different, yet you seem to use the words interchangeably.

Banking = creation of credit.

Finance (today) is about creating overly complex financial products to take part in the game of high volume automated trading, such as with the use of BlackRock's Aladdin - where the same financial products are sold and resold hundreds of times in an hour. Pure speculation/extraction/Rentierism.

As the comment you replied to wrote:

> The first step to fixing this is to give citizens the ability to opt out of private banks and bank directly with the central bank. Private banks should not be the only ones with this privilege.

"The problem is largely in the system of exchange we call “money,” and in the banks that store and distribute it. Rather than allowing the free exchange of labor and materials for production, our system of banking and credit has acted as a tourniquet on production and a parasite draining resources away.

Genuine economic freedom requires that credit flow freely for productive use. But today, a handful of giant banks diverts that flow into an exponentially-growing self-feeding pool of digital profits for themselves. In the wake of the 2008 financial crisis, much of the global economy has been battling economic downturn, with rampant unemployment, government funding problems, and harsh austerity measures imposed on the people. Meanwhile, the banks that caused this devastation have been bailed out at government expense and continue to thrive at the public trough. All this has caused irate citizens to rise up against the banks, particularly the large international banks. But for better or worse, we cannot do without the functions they perform; and one of these is the creation of “money” in the form of credit when banks make loans.

This advance of bank credit has taken the form of “fractional reserve” lending, which has been heavily criticized. Yet historically, it is this sort of credit created out of nothing on the books of banks that has allowed the wheels of industry to turn. Employers need credit at each stage of production before they have finished products that can be sold on the market, and banks need to be able to create credit as needed to respond to this demand. Without the advance of credit, there will be no products or services to sell; and without products to sell, workers and suppliers cannot get paid.

If banks have an unfair edge in this game, it is because they have managed to get private control of the credit spigots. They use this control not to serve business, industry, and society’s needs but for their private advantage. They can turn credit on and off at will, direct it to their cronies, or use it for their own speculative ventures; and they collect the interest as middlemen. This is not just a modest service fee. Interest has been calculated to compose a third of everything we buy."[1]

The strongest alternative I am seeing emerge at this point is a new distributed peer to peer cryptographically secured accounting framework/pattern called Holochain. It allows us to rapidly prototype, and start using, new types of mutually sovereign asset backed Mutual Credit 'currencies' [2] (wealth-acknowledgement systems), based on productive capacity and measuring this wealth in new ways that isn't possible to integrate with today's money system. This includes the use of reputation currencies (think FairTrade labels, Organic veggie labels etc.). Building on this are projects like http://valueflo.ws.

[1] https://ellenbrown.com/what-are-public-banks-and-how-do-they...

[2] https://medium.com/holochain/beyond-blockchain-simple-scalab...

Re: Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

#294
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't forget that much of the risk / responsibility should the business do poorly is on their heads The worst outcome for any employee, exec or lowly serf, is the loss of their job. But it's far more devastating for a rank-and-filer to lose their job than for a highly-paid exec to lose theirs. So...no the majority of the workforce also takes on most of the risk should the business do poorly.

Not true actually. The majority of employees do not get fired. Only a minority do And the minority that is let go get 3-6 months of severance and unemployment benefits until they inevitably find a new job - which btw is far easier to do when you are not an executive of a floundering business.

> The majority of employees do not get fired. Only a minority do

A minority end up fired but all of them potentially can be.

> And the minority that is let go get 3-6 months of severance

This is not written into any employment contract. 3-6 months sounds absurdly generous.

> unemployment benefits until they inevitably find a new job

UI benefits only offer partial wage replacement.

> which btw is far easier to do when you are not an executive of a floundering business.

Part of the reason execs get paid highly is to take on that risk. They have no excuse for not building up a healthy nest egg to get through periods of unemployment. Execs don't live paycheck-to-paycheck, or if they do, surely they should know better about managing money wisely. Otherwise why did they even have their jobs?

Execs also have way better personal networks for finding new jobs. Their friends are other execs in other companies. So it's not at all obvious that they'll be unemployed for longer than average Joe Pink Slip.

Re: Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because we know exactly where the buck doesn't stop. They're getting ready for round 2, and if the rule setters do the same thing, we'll get the same result. People want to blame the banks -- and banks share the blame -- but they are not the root cause. The legislated rules are like physics, you don't get mad at the water flowing wrong but at the people who planned the river. The planning committee is doing all…

Saying that Trump is to blame for the implementation details because he has the veto power is a little silly. Congress, on both sides of the aisle, has responsibility for any flaws in the legislation.

He's the president, if he cared, he'd prioritize SMBs. He's the check and balance. Instead, congress, judicial, and executive are now all effectively Republican controlled, with Trump de-facto leading the party because McConnell decided to go with it. Trump can pass the buck during one of the biggest losses of life in US history & the biggest recessions, but as the ultimate elected check, no way should we give a free pass. He should do his job, leave, or get the blame.

Anyways, this has gotten beyond HN. As an SMB owner, it's pretty clear what is and isn't happening.

Re: Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finance is a very important industry that adds a lot of value. If you get a student loan, you can go to university tomorrow and earn more in a few years, that's much more valuable than spending 20yrs at McDonald's earning nothing and saving very slowly to pay for your degree upfront as you would have to otherwise. Ditto mortgages. Ditto getting a car or starting a business or basically anything finance permits. The g…

> If it wasn't useful, people wouldn't be paying for the services it provides, they're all optional. Honestly, in my opinion this could not be a more misinformed take on the reality of banking. Today there exist no alternatives to commercial money (private bank debt), because our governments' demand taxes in it. Finance and banking are also different, yet you seem to use the words interchangeably. Banking = creation…

You haven't answered the question though: if finance isn't useful, why do people keep using it and paying for it?

You for instance (forgive me getting personal) don't have to engage in high volume trading products using Blackrock Aladdin. You can just get a job, get paid, and spend what you earn.

Re: Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root problem was Trump team didn't put in enough money, included too many rich businesses, and didn't require a fair order. Banks knew they didn't have enough meat yet were feeding a frenzy: of course the big dogs pushed through to the front. So now we blame Banks instead of Trump. Yet if Trump repeats the plan without prioritizing actual small businesses, the co's big enough for in-house accountants and big loan…

> Trump team didn't put in enough money You know, the president doesn't write legislation or appropriate money. That's on Congress.

> You know, the president doesn't write legislation

The President is the most powerful single actor in setting the content of legislation.

> That's on Congress

In the parliamentary system, that would be obviously true; the US has a strong presidential system, making that far less true.

Re: Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because we know exactly where the buck doesn't stop. They're getting ready for round 2, and if the rule setters do the same thing, we'll get the same result. People want to blame the banks -- and banks share the blame -- but they are not the root cause. The legislated rules are like physics, you don't get mad at the water flowing wrong but at the people who planned the river. The planning committee is doing all…

Saying that Trump is to blame for the implementation details because he has the veto power is a little silly. Congress, on both sides of the aisle, has responsibility for any flaws in the legislation.

> Saying that Trump is to blame for the implementation details because he has the veto power is a little silly.

Only in that it's silly to ignore that he's to blame for the implementation details since implementation details are pretty much what the Executive branch does.

Re: Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

#299
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Most theories of the good hold that you are certainly entitled to things just for being born - take your life for instance." Where can more information be found about "theories of the good"? What about this thing we call money - how much are we entitled to and from who? Can anyone explain what the benefit is of living an existence feeling entitled to something tangible such as money?

Sure, you can examine moral and political philosophy. Nozick has some writing about it, Rawls does, Mill, etc. - it's a whole branch of thought. The benefit of shaping society in a way that you think is good is that you end up with a better society. I don't really think you're discussing in good faith, so I'll end it here - but I think this is a very interesting line of discussion.

I'm open to learning about moral and political philosophy. I will check out Nozick, Rawls and Mill - thanks for the pointers.

Meanwhile I am failing to grasp how feeling (worse yet acting) entitled to something (in this case money) from someone else or society at large is beneficial. Anyone I've ever met or interacted with IRL with this disposition is perpetually unfulfilled and extremely ungrateful for very gift of life they have been given.

Have you ever met a successful, happy, healthy and/or otherwise admirable individual who feels or acts entitled?

Re: Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

#300
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...just give them money directly to those parents instead. When you give money to the airlines, those airlines like handing out bonuses to their execs, and initiating stock buybacks with the confidence that they'll get bailed out in case hard times hit. Airlines are not parents , and they are not invested in their employees wellbeing . It's a false equivalency because an employer-employee relation is nothing like a p…

You are assuming this deal is the same as previous ones. Its not even close https://www.marketwatch.com/story/united-airlines-details-it... Grants for employee salaries and benefits like health insurance, low interest loan to be paid back, and a stake in the company in the form of equity. And all with strings attached so they can't hand out bonuses or lobby congress. Businesses operate on revenue and margin and compa…

> Businesses operate on revenue and margin and companies like airlines can't justify using even 1% of its revenue to "save" for rainy days.

Huh. Where did they get the money for the stock buybacks they initiated last year?

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