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Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

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Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#291
post #256

I know it is about APIs - but no mention of any Free or at least Open Source Software example implementations makes me worry. I was expecting that people would organize around git repos - but no, just one of the many COVID tracing initiatives published their code. It is https://github.com/tripleblindmarket/covid-safe-paths by the way.

This specific one came out a few hours ago and is pretty auditable even if those two don't disclose their implementation for this tiny part. Other than that many, in fact most of those I know to be active, tracing efforts are pretty open, the one you linked is definitely not the only one that currently publishes their source or plans to do so in the near future. There's even been others in this thread.

Agreed, most of them are completely open. Here's the best effort I have seen to document all the parallel efforts:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16Kh4_Q_tmyRh0-v452wiul9o...

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#292

Contact tracing has a time and place, and it's early in isolated outbreaks. The cat is out of the bag at this point and thinking we're going to contact trace our way to safety is a false promise. You'd have to be naive and short-sighted to accept their pinky-promise of privacy-first in this context.

If you assume the goal of contact tracing is to literally find every infection, yes, this isn't going to work. If you assume the point of this is to reduce R0, then this will work just fine at any stage of the pandemic. There's obviously a question of what you should do when you find out you have been in contact, and that will differ depending on the stage. We probably want to be in a position where everyone who has…

How much more can you reduce the R0 below "nobody's allowed within 6 feet of each other"?

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#293

Am i the only one who thinks it's mindblowing that people use Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin, etc. however now that Apple + Google release a tool to prevent thousands of people from dying in a pandemic they start thinking/complaining about the possible privacy implications? (without even having read the specs or knowing the details...)

How many people complaining in this thread use or don't use Facebook, Instagram and Linkedin? Unless you actually know then it seems like you've contrived a group of hypothetical hypocrite 'complainers' to complain against.

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#294
post #239

Contact tracing has a time and place, and it's early in isolated outbreaks. The cat is out of the bag at this point and thinking we're going to contact trace our way to safety is a false promise. You'd have to be naive and short-sighted to accept their pinky-promise of privacy-first in this context.

> Contact tracing has a time and place, and it's early in isolated outbreaks. The cat is out of the bag at this point and thinking we're going to contact trace our way to safety is a false promise. It’s quite obvious that more intrusive measures (lockdowns) are needed now, but what do you do once they’ve Had their effect? You can’t just abolish all measures, as you’d be back to square one. That’s where this comes in…

> It’s quite obvious that more intrusive measures (lockdowns) are needed now...

Or less intrusive measures. We should shelter in place the vulnerable and let everyone else out like Sweden, and this will sort itself out amicably in a few weeks. Leaving the entire population with lasting immunity, preventing any chance of resurgence. [1]

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesasquith/2020/04/04/no-lock...

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#296

That combination Apple-Google logogram is scary! It’s like an image from some corporate future dystopian sci-fi.

The logogram in OP suppresses Google’s four colors, and so did the one on Google’s blog: https://blog.google/inside-google/company-announcements/appl... Also, the Apple logo is first. I wonder how this was decided?

Personally, I would choose to put the Apple logo first on aesthetic grounds.

Not because I like that logo better but because it is smaller. Since English reads left to right, if the short thing comes after the long thing, it looks lopsided.

Also, since the Google logo is larger, it is going to be more prominent no matter what, so putting the Apple logo first balances that out a bit. Seems fair to me.

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#297
As an aside, I'm not clear why tech startups and VC panicked over this catastrophe. Given their extreme flexibility, I would think this is the most promising sector to do some good stuff at the moment and do well after in any disrupted future environment.

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#298
I've been pondering over the idea of offering the option to use physical device, like e.g. a Bluetooth bracelet, for contact tracing in addition to apps.

For contact tracing to have an impact at all, we need a quite large percentage of the population to use one of these apps. Even if 60% of the population had some kind of app installed and this app worked properly, we would still only detect just 36% of all new infections, since both parties (infected person and person to be infected) need to use the app. There is a significant portion of the population that does not want to or cannot use such an app, e.g. the elderly, kids too young to have their own smartphone, people with certain disabilities, people that can't carry their phone with them all the time (e.g. while doing sports / working) etc. This population can still be relevant in spreading the virus - for instance, when loosening lockdowns, young children attending kindergarten / school can bridge the gap between families.

Moreover, even among those that own a smartphone and that want to use the app, I just can't see it all work flawlessly. Outside of the tech bubble, I see many people with older Android / iOS versions that don't receive updates (which might be crucial for contact tracing to function without having to keep the app open at all times) or people simply failing to install updates. We also don't want the app to be too sensitive (an infected person that happens to be at the opposite end of the same subway car shouldn't trigger quarantine for you), but also not too insensitive (people might put their phone in handbags or attenuate BLE radio waves with their body).

I think that these problems could be solved by offering something like a standalone Bluetooth bracelet, compatible with whatever App becomes the standard. It should be possible to mass-produce these relatively cheaply (The only technical problem I see is that the physical bracelet would need to receive a (trusted) "list of infected IDs" somehow. Maybe a mesh network of bracelets with smartphones as information providers could work? Maybe bracelets could connect to public WiFi? Or maybe we could leverage some existing low-tech data broadcast infrastructure such as RBDS/RDS (Radio Data System)?

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#299
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP is correct, but it doesn’t matter much. They were referring to daily key, not the EphID (RPI in the Apple/google spec). DP3T specifies that SK _t = H( SK _{t-1} ). In that design, you share the daily key from when you started to become infectious, and then the subsequent ones can be computed. Then you go into quarantine, stop being infectious, and (see spec) create a new random daily key going forward (or delete t…

The difference is that you can continue tracking a person indefinitely, even after they are no longer infectious. It requires explicit user action to avoid that (opt-out vs opt-in).

If the DP3T app is implemented to spec and creates a new random daily key after the infectious period ends, no.

If the A/G app is not implemented to spec and keeps uploading daily keys even after the infectious period is over, yes.

So, dunno. A/G has a bit more privacy (maybe) for 5x more data volume than DP3T.

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#300
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this at the behest of the government? Seems privately driven?

Sure. DPA was not invoked only few days ago. Companies were not already threatened openly ( and not so openly ) to obey or else. Companies are effectively expected to volunteer their services or risk consequences from government( and potential bad PR ).

None of those facts indicate directly that this wasn't privately driven. They suggest reasons to be skeptical but, at the same time, it's highly unlikely they developed this spec since the DPA was invoked. These companies have been threatened by the Trump White House for years and did nothing to show they succumbed to them. The risk of bad PR hasn't stopped companies from committing sins.

Sometimes, especially in crises, people like actually want to help other people.

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