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$5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

caloes.ca.gov

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Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#291

Post by gruez »

EdgarVerona wrote: post #213
forkexec wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasing retail prices doesn't do any good, especially normal people who need one package of TP, limiting quantities does. That's a fairer way to solve it than treat TP like some damn Bitcoin.

To bgorman: (apparently I can't reply directly to you, there's some nesting limit in Hacker News [EDIT: apparently not? I see a "reply" button now where it didn't exist before? odd]) >I would much rather be able to buy one package of toilet paper for 50 dollars versus being able to buy zero for 5 dollars. Yeah, because you have 50 dollars to spend on that. What's a person supposed to do who is only barely making ends…

>apparently I can't reply directly to you, there's some nesting limit in Hacker News [EDIT: apparently not? I see a "reply" button now where it didn't exist before? odd])

AFAIK it's an anti-flamewar mechanism. Successively deeper comments require longer cooldowns before replies can be made.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#293

Post by daenz »

jayd16 wrote: post #262
daenz wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Protections like this are useful in the short term. Explain how this "protection" will stop the stated problem of people hoarding and reselling. Since when have fines or punishment stopped black markets from existing? >It already failed so I don't see why suggesting the status quo is useful. "The car brakes couldn't decelerate the car fast enough, they failed, so I don't see why suggesting better brakes is useful."…

If you don't think any laws are successful and we shouldn't use them then I don't know what to tell you. How about parking tickets or a million other behaviors we shape through fines? Free markets work in the long term but as they say the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.

I understand how laws shape behavior, but I also believe that for a law to be effective, it has to be worth the effort to enforce it. This law doesn't protect anyone, as you stated it would, unless the government is spending its limited resources chasing down TP resellers and confiscating their goods. It certainly isn't going to stop the hoarding.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#294

Post by gwright »

newbie578 wrote: post #97
avip wrote: post #79

Reading this thread is the official confirmation that Americans are out of their mind.

Absolutely, I cannot fathom how people are so anti-government that they cannot see the forest from the tree. These types of situations are textbook explanations for WAR PROFITEERING (except we are in a crisis instead of war).

> These types of situations are textbook explanations for WAR PROFITEERING (except we are in a crisis instead of war).

Meh. I don't think it is the same thing at all. There is no shortage of raw materials or of labor (as in war time).

There is an increased demand (irrational or rational doesn't matter). Best way to decrease demand is to let prices rise. It isn't really any simpler than that.

If politeness or customs or laws prevent the price from rising while demand continues to rise then the outcome is 100% expected: shortages where the product isn't available for any price.

It is our own mis-placed disdain for surge pricing that is creating the shortages.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#295

Post by kevingadd »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #235
EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

> This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to produce Production and logistics have gotten more expensive. That has happened economy-wide, and will only get worse as the pandemic exponentiates. They’ve also become less reliable, which is why we have hoarding. The purpose of price spikes is to incentivise production, to create slack in the system. (It also reduces the quantity demanded. Toilet paper at…

Toilet paper is produced locally (since it's very expensive to ship from overseas), so the logistics and production costs for TP aren't likely to have changed much as a result of COVID-19. We don't require employers to provide paid sick leave so the hourly wage people doing production and logistics for the TP also aren't costing the employer more than before, and they're probably showing up sick like usual so they won't be dealing with staffing issues.

At present TP demand is simply higher than normal (from panic) and manufacturers are having to scale up. This is all avoidable.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyfeldman/2020/03/12/how-kochs...

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#296

Post by kevingadd »

g_langenderfer wrote: post #263
EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

> and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. So are you suggesting: - I create a toilet paper cartel with all my buddies - we hit surrounding area grocery stores with surgical TP buying - Hoard til prices rise - dump on muppet consumers - profit?? this is ridiculous

Check ebay and equivalents, kijiji just had to go on record that they were banning sales of toilet paper, sanitizer, etc.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#297

Post by salawat »

gwright wrote: post #267
EdgarVerona wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how I feel, precisely. There are real, human consequences to these price increasing theories. It will be felt by people who are, by a large margin, not the target audience of Hacker News. It'll be felt by people who have to choose between having basic healthcare supplies and paying rent, or eating. Indeed, at that point I think rationing - either by the companies selling the product, or by the government (as…

Letting the price float is the fastest way to discourage the hoarders and let the market come back to a sane equilibrium. By not allowing the price to float you can see that the result is empty shelves. The empty shelf is also a "real, human consequence".

The price float shouldn't happen. Furthermore, an alternative measure, social ostracization/legal pressure is being employed to remedy the situation.

Existence is not the Market, and the Market does not take place in a void. You cannot reduce the world to a bunch of economic models, because at the end of the day, people will get tired of your Quant's BS and do something that generally doesn't end well for the person who ignores human nature.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#298

Post by jbay808 »

cl0rkster wrote: post #191
EdgarVerona wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You neglected to mention that when people see fake headlines about toilet paper scarcity, there's a nontrivial percentage of people who see that as an opportunity for said arbitrage. There's two kinds of hoarding happening here: fear-alleviating and profit-seeking, which allows the profit seeking form of acquisition to be possible. Several weeks ago, it wouldn't have been feasible for someone to scoop up the entire m…

Seems to me that it's unlikely the toilet paper producers are perpetually running at 100% factory output. Something tells me they will respond by increasing production. Why? Because they are seeing enormous sales currently. Of course they want more. With some of the supply chain troubles we are having with everything closing, though, the delay might be slightly longer. I highly doubt this shortage will last longer th…

If I owned a TP factory I wouldn't increase production. Consumption has not increased, this is a distribution issue. If I increase production now, I'll spend a bunch of money on overtime and then have to shut my whole factory down next month as the glut from all the hoarding makes its way through the system and everyone stops buying TP.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#299

Post by saghm »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #138
EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

"There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product." People hoarding aren't trying to create artificial scarcity. They are buying because they anticipate scarcity, and want to either (i) be prepared, or (ii) profit from resale. Hoarding has caused shortages which, in turn, justify the original hoarding. This…

> People hoarding aren't trying to create artificial scarcity. They are buying because they anticipate scarcity, and want to either (i) be prepared, or (ii) profit from resale

How would (ii) be a profitable activity if buying in bulk wasn't creating artificial scarcity? I mean, I guess you could argue that the scarcity isn't "artificial", but like, when someone is literally buying more hand sanitizer than they could possibly want to actual use themselves, that seems pretty artificial to me.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#300

Post by gwright »

wilg wrote: post #236
sneak wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you get from small/no government libertarianism to “right-wing”?

I know libertarians think they are very clever and aren't on anybody's side, but enlightened selfishness is still the enemy of progress. That philosophy is pretty darn right-wing on economic and social issues. You can't just slap "personal freedom" on top of that and claim it comes out smelling like a rose.

> enlightened selfishness is still the enemy of progress

Baloney.

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