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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#291

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

jeffdavis wrote: post #262
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I honestly don't see how anyone wins with that outcome. Then you presumably aren't aware of how abusive religious people can be towards atheists, and that includes in AA groups.

It's one thing to criticize religious impositions on a secular activity (like addiction recovery). What you have just done is criticize religious people as a group, and claim that they are abusive. Criticize ideas and policies; not groups of people.

> What you have just done is criticize religious people as a group, and claim that they are abusive.

No, I have obviously not.

> Criticize ideas and policies; not groups of people.

Why? What, in your mind, is the problem with criticizing abusive religious people as a group?

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#292

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

daseiner1 wrote: post #250
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That power could be the love of your family, wife/husband, kids, the energy that moves the cosmos, or a fucking Zagnut bar. So, either you actually believe that a Zagnut bar is an agent that can help you out of your desparate situation by using its special powers. Or you are intentionally obfuscating the rather obvious fact that indeed, people do not need to surrender to anything or anyone, because obviously it's n…

missing the point entirely. alcoholism is illogical. alcoholism is not something one can control. surrender is a key part of the program because to get sober the alcoholic must accept that they cannot do something that it seems everyone else can (drink)

But THERE IS NO HIGHER POWER INVOLVED. There just isn't. Even if alcoholism is illogical, there still just isn't.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#293

Post by peatfreak »

jlangemeier wrote: post #41
NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

The problem with invoking that part of the solution that helps is the surrender to a higher power, is that there isn't a lot of group therapy solutions that don't have that involved. We can't effectively say for certain whether there's a correlation with throwing in a higher power or just group therapy on its own in this circumstance, and I know for a fact there are many that will not join an "* Anonymous" group beca…

> We can't effectively say for certain whether there's a correlation with throwing in a higher power or just group therapy on its own in this circumstance

The higher power is not "thrown in" to AA, it is the critical foundation.

Also the people who are most critical of this concept or most aggressively reject AA based on a perceived religious foundation also tend to be the ones who have the poorest understanding of what the higher power means.

I'll admit it's not an easy concept to grasp. For many/most fellows AA the principles of AA take a good amount of time to begin to understand, and alcoholics sometimes bumble their way in and out for years before this happens. It's a learning process. Pushing back on these principles, especially the existence of one's higher power, correlates highly with continued active drinking. Acceptance of this is the whole point of the program.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#294

Post by badpun »

program_whiz wrote: post #288

Its possible cultivating those beliefs, even if false, is a powerful tool in overcoming addiction. It may actually be the case that cultivating some belief in a higher reason / order to the universe is beneficial in recovery. There are dedicated circuits in the brain for religious / spiritual thinking and feeling, and when activated may play a role. As a counter-point, its possible to imagine a scientific discovery t…

> Its possible cultivating those beliefs, even if false, is a powerful tool in overcoming addiction. It may actually be the case that cultivating some belief in a higher reason / order to the universe is beneficial in recovery.

Also - these beliefs may be soothing, which decreases stress level and helps with depression and addiction.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#295

Post by NAaddict167 »

athrowaway69 wrote: post #263
iateanapple wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists. In my experience there are two types of atheists who go to AA: those for whom religion “isn’t their thing” and those who are actively hostile to religion. I think the latter group should find an alternative to AA.

Nice. Blaming the victim and implying I was the hostile one. I'm respectful of others' religions. It's a private matter. I made friends, ostensibly, until they found out I was an atheist. So fuck right off with your pseudo-righteous bullshit, okay?

Yep I agree with you.

Not right to blame you for other’s behaviours.

Doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong from what you posted.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#296

Post by toofy »

bawolff wrote: post #269
toofy wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had relapsed after I moved and continued using until I was homeless. It was a drama fest. I obviously don’t have your unique and nuanced understanding of the situation, but this seems like a common occurrence with all humans when they lack information. In my experience when we don’t have information, our group tendencies lean towards filling g…

Humans might have a tendency to gossip...but what's described sounds pretty extreme and well, toxic. To make the broader point, just because humans tend to be assholes does not mean we should accept people being assholes as "natural" or ok.

Oh I certainly did not mean to imply it’s natural or OK...

To be more clear, this type of toxicity is seen all over the place and I think this behavior is likely caused by something that isn’t unique to any rehabilitation programs.

We see this toxic behavior in everything spanning from job workgroups to community planning committees and yes, it even manifests in extreme ways in many many communities.

I’d be the very last person to fall back on some “oh X is natural, so we should always accept X.” so if I gave this impression, huge apologies. It definitely was not my intention.

And I really don’t want to come across as if I’m stanning for AA as I’ve heard much more negative about them than positive.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#297

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

leetcrew wrote: post #246
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, other people are a Zagnut bar? The point here is that there is no "higher power" involved. It's other people or you yourself, or possibly both, neither of which in any meaningful sense qualifies as a "higher power", and either of which has a completely unambiguous, non-confusing term to refer to it: "Other people" and "yourself". The point is that it is dishonest to then pretend that somehow a Zagnut bar could pl…

tbh I always feel like AA people are shooting themselves in the foot with these silly examples of a "higher power", especially on forums like this one. I doubt anyone earnestly surrenders themselves to a candy bar or fire extinguisher, but I'm certainly not knocking it if it helps someone. I think the point is that you need some sort of mind hack to escape the paradigm of will vs. desire which has been a losing battl…

> I doubt anyone earnestly surrenders themselves to a candy bar or fire extinguisher, but I'm certainly not knocking it if it helps someone.

No, of course, noone does, that's the point. Possibly, some people somehow think that they do (and even that seems a bit unlikely to me), but it just is a nonsense concept: You can, as a matter of semantics, not surrender to something that doesn't exercise power. You might as well be saying that you need to wash yourself, but you can also do so by looking at a horse. Looking at a horse makes you washed as much as following instructions of a candy bar makes you do anything, for lack of any washing effect in one case, for lack of any instructions in the other.

> I think the point is that you need some sort of mind hack to escape the paradigm of will vs. desire which has been a losing battle thus far for most addicts. it is ultimately your will that prevails, but you have to trick yourself otherwise for it to work.

That might well be the case, yep. And I see two big problems with not clearly stating that that is what's (likely) going on: In more than one place, it seems to cause harrassment of atheists, and I am not so sure it's actually helpful for mental health when people externalize the credit for the work that they have done themselves. And also, even if that's a hack that is needed in the "therapeutic context", a discussion about the scientific evidence of the efficacy certainly is not a place for such intentionally onfuscating language.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#298

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

fat_cam wrote: post #253
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That power could be the love of your family, wife/husband, kids, the energy that moves the cosmos, or a fucking Zagnut bar. So, either you actually believe that a Zagnut bar is an agent that can help you out of your desparate situation by using its special powers. Or you are intentionally obfuscating the rather obvious fact that indeed, people do not need to surrender to anything or anyone, because obviously it's n…

The point is, you find a power greater than yourself that you can surrender your will to. That "higher power" is different to everybody. A lot of people let them selves get hung up on the higher power bit because they can't abstract the idea of surrendering to a non quantifiable or tangible thing (hence the Zagnut bar for those who can't surrender to the idea of love or the ideas of forces of nature). Believe me, I w…

> The point is, you find a power greater than yourself that you can surrender your will to.

So, you think that a candy bar is a power, in any way whatsoever?

> A lot of people let them selves get hung up on the higher power bit because they can't abstract the idea of surrendering to a non quantifiable or tangible thing

Because it's nonsense?

> (hence the Zagnut bar for those who can't surrender to the idea of love or the ideas of forces of nature)

Which makes it only more nonsensical?

> Believe me, I was one of those people for a long time. But my suffering got so great that I eventually had to admit to myself that I cannot do it on my own and I need to find something I hold sacred and dear.

... and then you did it yourself, thus demonstrating that you were simply wrong about not being able to do it yourself.

> It's better to believe a Zagnut bar could restore me to sanity, then to continue to kill myself with alcohol and drugs.

Only if that actually "restores you to sanity". And if it does, it was still you who "restored yourself to sanity".

> Again, the point is surrender. I am in no way saying the Zagnut bar is doing anything but inspiring hope in the alcoholic

Yes, you are. You are saying it's "a higher power". It's not. It's a candy bar. Possibly a candy bar that is inspiring hope in an alcoholic.

> And you are 100% correct that the work comes from inside, not a candy bar.

So, why all this dishonest mumbo-jumbo about a "higher power"? Mind you, this is not a therapeutic setting, this is a discussion about scientific evidence of efficacy.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#299

Post by krageon »

iateanapple wrote: post #285
athrowaway69 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice. Blaming the victim and implying I was the hostile one. I'm respectful of others' religions. It's a private matter. I made friends, ostensibly, until they found out I was an atheist. So fuck right off with your pseudo-righteous bullshit, okay?

Judging from how hostile your response is you are probably in the later category. I’m an atheist and I’ve been going to AA meetings for years in a very religious area and I’ve had no problems at all. If you are in the former category you are welcome and should try a different AA group.

Consider that you did suggest it was their own fault because they did something bad and you have all the reason you need for their "hostile" response. You've been fairly unpleasant about something that was obviously a big thing in their life and that yields you responses like this. Turning that around and (again) blaming them and suggesting their negative response is entirely their fault goes beyond that into the fairly toxic. That's not a healthy way to communicate with other people.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#300

Post by program_whiz »

badpun wrote: post #294
program_whiz wrote: post #288

Its possible cultivating those beliefs, even if false, is a powerful tool in overcoming addiction. It may actually be the case that cultivating some belief in a higher reason / order to the universe is beneficial in recovery. There are dedicated circuits in the brain for religious / spiritual thinking and feeling, and when activated may play a role. As a counter-point, its possible to imagine a scientific discovery t…

> Its possible cultivating those beliefs, even if false, is a powerful tool in overcoming addiction. It may actually be the case that cultivating some belief in a higher reason / order to the universe is beneficial in recovery. Also - these beliefs may be soothing, which decreases stress level and helps with depression and addiction.

Great point. I think we evolved these types of thinkings because it helped with tribal cohesion, self-soothing, and the ability to deal with adversity. The thought "everything happens for a reason" comes to mind.
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