Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 617 posts

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#291

Post by lone_haxx0r »

tomp wrote: post #262
hervature wrote: post #4

> Finland says it wants to "promote wellbeing and gender equality" Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave.

The broader issue is that having/raising children doesn't fit with the otherwise fairly materialistic value system our society has. Childless women earn just as much as men. Forcing fathers to take family leave does fix the asymmetry between parents (mothers vs fathers), but will exacerbate the difference between parents and non-parents by penalizing not just mothers, but also fathers for having children, vs. non-par…

It also penalizes non-fathers because employers assume the possibility of you having children, and that has an effect on your pay, even if you never have children.

As a non-father, you have no way to say "I don't want paternity leave" and negotiate a better salary instead.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#292

Post by nickbauman »

I don't know what it's like in the Nordic countries but here in the US I walk down the street with a 4 year old on my shoulders to work every day to drop her off at school. The women I pass on the street and in the halls beam at her when she greets them and sometimes they exchange a few words. The men? They don't notice her: she's edited out of their minds eye like she doesn't exist, even if she cries "HULLOOO! My name is ___ what's yours?" to them except on rare occasions.

Men who don't have the experience of caring for a child even for a short while cannot make good decisions about what's normative of a civilization. Good policies will not be enacted if men do not "see" children.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#293

Post by Phillips126 »

nautilus12 wrote: post #71

USA will never do this :( Plus my kids are already born. I got two weeks and it wasn't nearly enough.

When my 1st daughter was born, I got exactly 2 days off using my own vacation days. We were a small team at a printing company and each person had a "specialization". If I wasn't there, it was a large part of the company effectively shut down until I returned (it was a lot of pressure and I am glad to not be there anymore).

At a different company (much much larger) I was able to take 2 weeks (out of 3 the company provides) of vacation when my son was born and I am two months away from my third and final child where I expect to do the same. I wish I was able to spend more time with them (and my recovering Wife from the caesarean) but as the primary income for our household we wouldn't be able to survive on things like FMLA. It is very disappointing seeing how modern the rest of the world is in terms of healthcare, maternity/paternity leave, education, etc...

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#294

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #272
s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> under this bill, 2.1 million civilian federal workers also will be able to take paid leave to care for a new baby after birth, adoption or the start of foster care Currently it's PAID leave for federal workers only, but it's a start. Contact your senator and tell them it's important to you.

Yes, I have. But time and time again, my fellow voters (and non voters) have shown that they don't quite care as much about things like paid parental leave as much as they do taxes, gun rights, national "security" and military engagements, restricting abortion rights etc.

I care about all of those things and parental leave.

I doubt you can group all those people together, and remember, you don't know them.

You listed a lot of right issues to imply that the left is the only side fighting for it, which is not true.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#295

Post by tomp »

lone_haxx0r wrote: post #291
tomp wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The broader issue is that having/raising children doesn't fit with the otherwise fairly materialistic value system our society has. Childless women earn just as much as men. Forcing fathers to take family leave does fix the asymmetry between parents (mothers vs fathers), but will exacerbate the difference between parents and non-parents by penalizing not just mothers, but also fathers for having children, vs. non-par…

It also penalizes non-fathers because employers assume the possibility of you having children, and that has an effect on your pay, even if you never have children. As a non-father, you have no way to say "I don't want paternity leave" and negotiate a better salary instead.

You can make implicit inferences... e.g. younger people (below 25) are less likely to be parents anytime soon.

Also, there could be post-hiring pressures, motivating employees to not have kids in order to continue their stellar career trajectory (this probably already happens, and I think it's something that should be addressed by some kind of government-provided incentives... I was thinking something like tax-breaks or even tax-rewards for parents, or possibly public housing).

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#296

Post by OCASM »

nickbauman wrote: post #292

I don't know what it's like in the Nordic countries but here in the US I walk down the street with a 4 year old on my shoulders to work every day to drop her off at school. The women I pass on the street and in the halls beam at her when she greets them and sometimes they exchange a few words. The men? They don't notice her: she's edited out of their minds eye like she doesn't exist, even if she cries "HULLOOO! My na…

Maybe they want to avoid the risk of being labelled predators.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#297

Post by rconti »

keanzu wrote: post #175

> noticed about Norway when we were in Oslo A lot can be achieved when your country floats on oil. The Government Pension Fund Global, aka the Oil Fund, was worth about $195,000 per Norwegian citizen in 2018. If others had this kind of safety net they might behave in a similar manner. Petrostates can afford a lot of leisure time for their citizens.

The US can afford it, too. We choose not to.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#298

Post by toomuchtodo »

oblio wrote: post #43
toomuchtodo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the above.

It's paid leave...

How much would it take to get you to perform a temporary job you don’t want? The same compensation as for a job you do enjoy? Or more? Or is there no amount you’d take?

For example, having two kids, there is literally no amount of compensation or benefits you could provide as an employer or nation state to convince me to have more.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#299

Post by mandevil »

petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

My wife took her FMLA (unpaid) leave directly after pregnancy, then I took my (company benefit, paid) 16 weeks after that- with a two week overlap so that I was comfortable with all the work necessary. It meant that the kid spent the first half a year of his life with a parent providing care every moment, which was great, something that I am so grateful for, and something that I wish every parent could have an opportunity to have.

While I agree that the benefits of involved parents are most notable for kids at an older age, I think that the effect on the parent is largest at the beginning. Humans don't demonstrate their love by providing care, they provide care that turns into love. It is in the unrequited acts of service like changing diapers, feeding (bottle or breast), and rocking to sleep that build the parents feelings for the kid.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#300

Post by _jal »

keanzu wrote: post #175

> noticed about Norway when we were in Oslo A lot can be achieved when your country floats on oil. The Government Pension Fund Global, aka the Oil Fund, was worth about $195,000 per Norwegian citizen in 2018. If others had this kind of safety net they might behave in a similar manner. Petrostates can afford a lot of leisure time for their citizens.

> Petrostates can afford a lot of leisure time for their citizens

So what's the United State's excuse?

(A lot of US citizens are somehow unaware of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ...)

Post reply on HN