Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

strongtowns.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 324 posts

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#291

Post by slavik81 »

Firadeoclus wrote: post #268
samstave wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many aspects about driving in the US are so terrible. The road conditions are pretty bad, and what i would like to understand are the gas taxes and other taxes which ostensibly go into road infra. We have high gas taxes and drive more miles than most countries on the planet - where is that money going? Some countries have high vehicle costs and their roads to me seem pristine and perfect by comparison. Specificall…

Given that Singapore and Hong Kong are cities I would imagine that both of them have a much higher population density per road mile. Indeed, a quick search brings up unconfirmed numbers which indicate road per capita for the total US exceeds that of Singapore by an order of magnitude.

In addition, the Hong Kong fuel tax on unleaded gasoline is roughly 2.95 USD per gallon.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#292

Post by thfuran »

leetcrew wrote: post #272
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone talks tough on the internet but when it comes down to it basically everyone will avoid an accident because regardless of who's fault it would be it's still a massive pain in the ass and the proliferation of dash-cams has much reduced the opportunities to be a dick and make the other guy pay.

if you hit the back of someone's car, you're almost certainly paying regardless. you would have to prove they were intentionally brake checking you or something like that.

In some states you basically have a legal obligation to drive defensively and there's shared fault, even for what could sensibly be considered entirely the fault of one party.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#293

Post by cameldrv »

joethebob wrote: post #155
cameldrv wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "privately registered" vehicles don't matter for purposes of road damage. A fully loaded semi is 18,000 lbs per axle. A really huge personal vehicle, an F-350, is 4000 lbs per axle. That's 4.5x the weight, 4.5^4=410, so the semi is doing 410x as much damage. There's really no point in trying to tax personal vehicles for road damage when over 99% of the damage is being done by trucks.

The GVWR on a F350 is around 10-14,000, so somewhere between 5-7k axle load.

Yes that's the gross weight, i.e. carrying its maximum rated load. Personal vehicles are very rarely loaded up to their maximum weight, and mostly are driven relatively empty.

Even driven at gross weight, it's doing 5% of the damage per axle of loaded semi. The semi also has 4-5 axles, so it's more like 2% of the damage of the semi.

Mind you, we're talking here about the most damaging personal vehicle loaded to its maximum weight, and the semi is still doing 50x the damage of the personal vehicle. It's reasonable to say that essentially all road damage is done by semis.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#294

Post by cameldrv »

alamortsubite wrote: post #132
cameldrv wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "privately registered" vehicles don't matter for purposes of road damage. A fully loaded semi is 18,000 lbs per axle. A really huge personal vehicle, an F-350, is 4000 lbs per axle. That's 4.5x the weight, 4.5^4=410, so the semi is doing 410x as much damage. There's really no point in trying to tax personal vehicles for road damage when over 99% of the damage is being done by trucks.

Where are you getting your "over 99%" figure?

A semi is doing 400x as much damage as essentially the heaviest personal vehicle driving. For a more typical car at 4000 lbs (2000 lbs per axle), the semi does 6000x as much damage. If semis are 2% of all traffic (true in my observation), they're doing over 99% of the damage to roads. It makes no sense to care about road damage at all from any vehicle other than a heavy truck.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#295

Post by wwweston »

beerandt wrote: post #252
wwweston wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefits of zipper merge don't materialize fully unless merging lanes match speed approaching the merge point. The parent is likely talking about situations like those presented where a relatively less dense (and ending) lane is merging into a fully-loaded thru-lane, and the traffic in the relatively less dense lane, rather than matching speed and finding the tooth-gap correspondence that's implied in the name zi…

At the risk of sounding cold hearted: I get that it doesn't seem fair, but logically, it's the right call to drive to the end of the lane. 1) It keeps the rules simple. If we should merge at some arbitrary point before the lane is up, it will always be arbitrary, and different drivers will have different opinions. 2) By getting to the end and slowing down, the driver now has matched the speed of traffic. It's a self…

> At the risk of sounding cold hearted: I get that it doesn't seem fair, but logically, it's the right call to drive to the end of the lane.

There's no dispute on this point. It's the right call to merge at the last workable moment.

One can also make another wrong call in failing to match speed and negotiate tooth-gap arrangement (still in separate lanes) before doing so.

If drivers don't do that, it isn't a zipper merge, even if everyone waits.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#296

Post by wwweston »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #251
wwweston wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefits of zipper merge don't materialize fully unless merging lanes match speed approaching the merge point. The parent is likely talking about situations like those presented where a relatively less dense (and ending) lane is merging into a fully-loaded thru-lane, and the traffic in the relatively less dense lane, rather than matching speed and finding the tooth-gap correspondence that's implied in the name zi…

In times of congestion, the conditions rarely exists for very long which would allow both lanes to match speed before the merge point. The simplest rule is to use as much road as possible. It’s less than ideal 10% of the time, but 90% of the time it’s the inevitable result of too many cars.

> In times of congestion, the conditions rarely exists for very long which would allow both lanes to match speed before the merge point.

I see these conditions frequently in LA. Either two merging lanes are highly congested in which case they are moving at roughly the same speed anyway, or there's one congested lane and one less dense lane.

The latter case shows up at almost every onramp when traffic gets thick, so it's pretty common. It doesn't take any special skills to negotiate well: accelerate to the speed of thru traffic and proceed to the end of the lane looking for a gap to match with. If you feel like it or just don't want the people behind you who don't understand this to feel impatient, accelerate to maybe an additional 30% above matched speed, then slow down to matched speed and look for a gap as the end of the lane gets close.

Every once in a while you see the reverse situation, where for some reason the merging lane is thick and the thru lane is moving at speed. That is indeed a really difficult situation. Thankfully it's rarer.

> The simplest rule is to use as much road as possible.

Right. While matching speed.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#297

Post by habosa »

oblio wrote: post #193
habosa wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently drove around Spain for 2 weeks. My first significant international driving experience. I was shocked at how seriously they took the rule of only passing on the left. Every single car in the right line was driving slower than every single car in the left. It made driving so much better. The behavior of every car was basically predictable. I've never seen anyone pay much attention to their lane here.

As Stevvo said, it's not that they're serious, it's that it's illegal to do otherwise.

Traffic laws are the only laws most people (in any country) will disregard willingly without feeling like a criminal.

So illegal != taken seriously. In Spain it was both.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#298

Post by bartread »

leetcrew wrote: post #270
wldlyinaccurate wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find it interesting when people brag about not paying fines — especially when the fine is issued in a foreign country. To me it shows a lack of responsibility and a huge lack of respect for the local laws. I guess not everyone feels that way though.

there is a certain cynicism regarding traffic laws in the US. many drivers feel that some of the laws are in place for the sole purpose of revenue collection or to give the police an excuse to pull you over, absent any real safety concern. in my state, for example, it is against the law to have anything dangling from the rearview mirror. if I so much as forget to take down my parking permit in the morning, I can be p…

> in the US. many drivers feel that some of the laws are in place for the sole purpose of revenue collection

That's not a US only phenomenon. For example, in the UK there is a - somewhat justified - suspicion that some speed[1] cameras have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with revenue raising.

[1] Ahem, sorry, I mean "safety" not "speed", obviously.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#299

Post by bartread »

Aengeuad wrote: post #279
bartread wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK it's actually not illegal: it's just advised against, and considered bad form in most situations by most drivers. And, of course, if you cause an accident by undertaking the police will (rightly) throw the book at you. Examples where it's considered acceptable to undertake: - In heavier or queuing traffic inside lanes might move faster than outside lanes: this is OK, and it's considered better and safer to…

Like many other things in the Highway Code there may be no specific offence for failing to follow it but the police have enough freedom with fixed penalty notices making disregarding the rules an ill advised activity. https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q891.htm

I have no problem with this as long as they consistently enforce against lane hogging in the same way. (In my A1M example they clearly do.)

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#300

Post by joethebob »

cameldrv wrote: post #293
joethebob wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GVWR on a F350 is around 10-14,000, so somewhere between 5-7k axle load.

Yes that's the gross weight, i.e. carrying its maximum rated load. Personal vehicles are very rarely loaded up to their maximum weight, and mostly are driven relatively empty. Even driven at gross weight, it's doing 5% of the damage per axle of loaded semi. The semi also has 4-5 axles, so it's more like 2% of the damage of the semi. Mind you, we're talking here about the most damaging personal vehicle loaded to its m…

For the most part I agree. The other issue is psi load produced by different tread patterns. Going from some minimal water channels to a mud terrain cleated style will reduce surface area a good bit. If you have experience with rural areas you don't need a calculator to observe the highest direct damage is usually from agricultural tractors. Deformation from a single pass can be observed (and often felt) with the naked eye in many cases.
Post reply on HN