Live data from Hacker News

Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

npr.org

291–300 of 372 posts

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#291
post #42
post #30

All this talk about student loan forgiveness is an unnecessary solution to a problem that’s not really that bad: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/02/upshot/an-international-f... Average BA holders in the US graduate with $28,000 in debt, versus $21,000 in Sweden. The Swedish system is basically like our income-based-repayment, which we have had since the 1980s. Except, as you’d expect with Sweden, there is less paperw…

When making comparisons with Sweden or other countries the cost of healthcare, housing, food, and transportation should be taken into account. Healthcare and transportation costs are much higher in the U.S. I think too we also have a higher per capita income and I don't know how things balance out. One thing for sure though. I'd rather be poor in Sweden than in the U.S. There is also the fact that many students who s…

Why is the cost of living relevant when you’re talking about debt levels? The point is simply that our debt levels aren’t that unmanageable, and we could achieve something very close to the Swedish student loan system by simply automatically enrolling people in repayment plans we already have.

Moreover, American cost of living is the same in Sweden as in the US (the GDP per capita in nominal dollars is identical to the figure in purchasing-power-adjusted dollars). You may need a car, but housing is cheaper in most of the country.

As to healthcare, making comparisons is difficult. 2/3 of college graduates have employer subsidized healthcare. For those people, you need to look at the median employee premium portion, which is $2,200/year. (There are also out-of-pocket costs, mostly for drugs, but the US figure of about $1,000 is not much different than the Swedish figure of $800 on that front).

The employee premium paid by the typical college graduate is much less than the extra taxes that same person would pay in Sweden. The median college graduate earns $51,000 in the US to start. The median employee premium of $2,200 is 4.4% of that. The tax differential is almost certainly higher than that. (In Sweden, all of that is taxed at 30% county tax, no federal. In the US, the first $12,000 is tax free, and the rest is taxed at 10-12% federal, plus maybe 4-5% state and local, plus 7.65% FICA).

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you need a degree for a "trade" should not the industry have apprentices for that.

They do. In my state you can do a 2 year apprenticeship in cosmetology, but they can be hard to come by. You need to find a stylist willing to not only train you in practical aspects but follow your bookwork and write/grade tests. It's a two-year unpaid commitment. My wife owns a salon and has taken on a couple apprentices. It is a considerable amount of work. Alternatively a beauty school program can be done in a ye…

Unpaid!! I know hairdressing Is one of those industries that have medieval practices but realy.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#293
post #173
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If universities had to worry about students defaulting, they would get rid of bullshit degrees that don't result in an actual job and the prices would come done due to free market forces. This is a hypothetical but classic example of how regulation is required to support a free market.

A free market? Nobody but nobody would be stupid enough to lend money to students in a free market. The student would be an infeasible credit risk. They have no money or assets. There is no free market here.

> They have no money or assets.

That's entirely the point. Tuition would have to come down so it's actually affordable, or there would be less people attending. Businesses might actually foot the bill for tuition to train their people, because there would be a shortage of qualified applicants.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#294
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Why? If I take out a loan in order to go on a cruise, the cruise company is not responsible if I default. Imagine if everyone in the United States who wanted to go on a cruise was guaranteed to be given a loan to go on a cruise, regardless of the cost of said cruise or their personal circumstances. In that scenario, obviously cruise companies would increase prices, since their clients will always get the money to p…

not only that, in this scenario society would expect and pressure all young people to go on a cruise before they were eligible to join society.

Yeah, I wouldn't be in the same room as those dirty non-cruisers.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends how you implement the UK';s system is basically a graduate tax which seems fairer. I suspect that Labours ideas of scraping it will just lead to higher taxes for all ie poorer non graduates subsidising middle calss kids, or they will ration degree places

Why would it be just "poor non-graduates" subsidising "middle class kids"? An potential extra tax burden can be allocated from wherever the government sees fit. Like a digital services tax or closing loopholes that are conveniently left open for global corporations. Do you worry that the healthy poor people are subsidising the middle class sick ones through the NHS? Or that poor careful drivers are subsidising the co…

Everyone benefits from the NHS.

The moral hazard is non graduates (including pensioners) subsiding graduates.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or make it affordable. Tuition for ETH Zurich around 800 francs per semester.

What does that cover, or is it just a nominal tuition?

tuition and obligatory contributions

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This comment is an example of how any amount of problems caused by government intervention can be framed as a need for more government intervention. And your comment is an example of assuming that government regulation is at best a necessary evil and something to be avoided if at all possible. Most of western Europe has has regulated university fees for decades, and by all accounts this works pretty well. Public op…

> And your comment is an example of assuming that government regulation is at best a necessary evil and something to be avoided if at all possible. The role of government regulation is a separate question, but we're really jumping the shark when we can't even acknowledge basic cause and effect. It's not surprising that government policy making tons of student loan money available led to more students being willing to…

> It's not surprising that government policy making tons of student loan money available led to more students being willing to take out bigger loans. This is like Markets 101.

Totally agree with you on this.

> It's tough to take opponents seriously when basic, predictable side effects of favored policies are ignored just to recommend heavier-handed policies of the same kind.

It seems likely to me that the side effect wasn't ignored. Probably there was somebody proposing the "heavy handed" version of the legislation (which actually makes sense because it mitigates the side effect), but somebody else was opposing it because they don't like regulation. Thus, this problematic legislation emerged as a compromise.

Opposition to regulation often seems to be based on the idea that in practice regulation causes more problems than it solves. My observation is that regulation (esp. in the US) often does have this problem, but only because there is such opposition to regulation that it is almost impossible to enact the stronger and more sensible regulation that would actually work.

In short, it is often ideological opposition to regulation that causes it to fail, rather than the case that regulation in general doesn't work.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" So the average taxpayer has to buy their own health insurance in addition." How the money is collected is pretty irrelevant (indirectly via taxes or directly by the insurance company or physician). What matters is the overall cost.

Don't forget profit, and the incentive for insurance companies to care less about what they pay and probably prefer higher prices.

Why would insurance companies prefer higher prices?

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#299

We need to get rid of student loans. The problem is that Universities don't ever need to worry about a student defaulting and can keep increasing the prices of tuition with impunity. If they default, they don't care, because the money is already in the bank. If universities had to worry about students defaulting, they would get rid of bullshit degrees that don't result in an actual job and the prices would come done…

It's insane to me how quick some folks are to dismiss what they deem "bullshit degrees".

It's our culture that has turned education into some kind of "investment" in future job prospects. To put it simply, education was never intended to be that way, nor should it. It's as if studying the arts is some kind of luxury for those who are already financially well-off.

Education is supposed to be about learning just for the sake of learning, which benefits all of us. If there is not a place for people from certain fields of study, that's a failure of our economy and priorities. Yet it seems that too many have just accepted the current reality as "just the way things are".

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some universities have started doing income share agreements. They front the tuition cost for a portion of your future income. Depending on your degree program, they will take X percentage for Y years. Purdue was in the news for being one of the first: https://www.purdue.edu/dfa/types-of-aid/income-share-agreeme... Planet Money had a nice podcast about how they work: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/03/29/7081…

This is how student loans in the UK work. "You’ll repay 9% of your income above the repayment threshold – earn less and you won’t repay. Once you leave your course, you’ll only repay when your income is above the repayment threshold. The current UK threshold is £25,725 a year, £2,143 a month, or £494 a week." [0] [0]: https://www.ucas.com/student-finance-england/repaying-your-s...

I haven’t seen this mentioned in this thread yet, but there are income-based repayment plans for US loans. There are different plans, but it works much the same way as above, roughly: if you earn above a income threshold (~$20k), then you pay 10% of your income until a) the loan is repaid or b) 20 years have passed (remaining balance is discharged. But, you have to apply for these programs, and many people don’t know they exist and loan servicers have incentives to keep people on traditional repayment plans.

It’s not a cure-all: you can still default, and there are cases where you can end up repaying more than a traditional loan. Nevertheless, it should be the [/puts on sunglasses]...default option.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/understand/plans/in...

Post reply on HN