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Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

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Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#291
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So 228B€ for 50 years of 85% of the electricity consumption Nope. Nuke plant did not provide 85% during those 50 years. It even doesn't today (only about 71%). In 1971 approximatively approx 5% of the French gridpower was produced by nuke plants. Source: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrie_nucl%C3%A9aire_en_Fr... How exactly do you think it may have produced 85% of the gridpower for 50 years? This is inept and…

>Nope. Nuke plant did not provide 85% during those 50 years. That's a fair point, but it doesn't change the argument, the cost is over a long period with a big part of the electricity mix. >This 121B€ budget is not spent But locked in with feed in tariff form the pre-2017 poorly functioning 5.1%/1.9% mix. You seems to think that more solar and wind will come with that, no new solar panel and wind turbine will be buil…

EDF (French power company) enjoyed a monopoly lasting 50 years, massive research paid for by the military sector, no real accounting of the public funds they spent (at the very least 228 10e9 euros), the waste problem is not solved, real decommission (nearly all yet-to-be started) costs are unknown and will probably be vastly superior to the budget, the grand total cost must take into account any boo-boo made by a wandering waste during some 10000's years... and for all this they have to concede 1/4 of their current production at cost price. Granted, this is not a total waste because they did and do provide gridpower (given that its price is average in Europe, absolutely not a bargain). In any case this is a superb gift, many industrialists would kill for such a deal. EDF complains w/o any shame!

On a more fundamental viewpoint I think that subsidies are always at best inadequate, especially because they establish such vicious circle (subsidizing leads to a problem apparently solved by... subsidizing).

This 121B€ budget will be invested ('till 2046) to dynamise applied renewable energy. It has to offer some benefit to anyone investing and therefore accepting the risk inherent to any new and quickly developing tool, it is about long-term effects. You quote a blog, which is an immediate interpretation, not the intent and even less the (future) result.

Yes, Germany chose to kick out the bad nuke habit as fast as possible, maybe indeed too quickly for the short-term sake. On the other hand France tried to act slowly... and now its renewables program, not very ambitious, already is wayyyyyy behind previsions.

Yes, establishing new production sites implies new connections, and therefore investments. Connecting a new nuke powerplant also costs. Yes, connecting renewables globally cost more given that nukes needs less sites (intensity). However renewables don't blow up, don't produce hot waste, are easy to decommission, create jobs, create know-how and product which are more and more marketable (much more than nuke plants!)... Total lifecycle cost+risk is key.

France is indeed right now more efficient than Germany when it comes to decarbonizing gridpower production. However this is a snapshot, while the whole subject is a process. There is no finish line, and if in a pair of decades may Germany lead on all accounts, free of nukes and continuing to be a leader in a growing renewables market. Then we will once more conclude that they adopted an industrial approach much more adequate than ours, as in many other sectors.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A drill in a new not-yet-started local and small solution is not a running global solution. When all waste will be inert we may evaluate the sanitary consequences. Meanwhile the dangerous hot waste may or may not harm. Well-known scientists who worked in situ have a somewhat different opinion about the consequences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl:_Consequences_of_the... UN agencies aren't BS and lies-free.

It has started. They are doing actual tests of waste packages in actual final disposition tunnels. See the photo gallery. > When all waste will be inert we may evaluate the sanitary consequences. Meanwhile the dangerous hot waste may or may not harm. I don't understand how you can justify this statement. Again, commercial nuclear waste in dry casks has never hurt anyone and probably never will, yet nuclear power has…

The Chernobyl plant, according to officials speaking before the disaster, also was so sure that it could be built on the Red Square. Those savants were nowhere to be found during the disaster.

You play the usual card of nuke proponent, which is to describe things just as if not emitting carbon during energy production implies nukes. This is not true. Many renewables, mainly wind and solar, are pertinent. This is absolutely not a "coal or nuke, there is no other option" challenge.

Nuke proponents also tend to imply that a 100% nuke-generated gridpower will solve the carbon problem. This is not realistic, as gridpower-related CO2 emission are at max 25%, and more realistically about 17%, of the total emissions.

France gridpower production is way more decarbonized than Germany's, Germany is a more heavy player on many fuel-consuming industries (chemical, mechanics, material...), Germany climate implies more heating and France is the leader when it comes to electric heating systems... therefore one may think that Germany's carbon dioxide emissions per capita are way, way superior to France's.

They aren't!

For 2018: France 5, Germany 9.6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#293
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superph%C3%A9nix#Operation

It was a research project.

Nope, it became one when it was clear that too many incidents were impeding industrial production.

The WP article states it clearly: it "was a nuclear power station prototype", it means that there was hope to decline it, not that it was a lab. It was a "1,242 MWe" reactor, which sort of lab uses such a monster?

It was meant to be "an economical generator of power on its own."

As for its success: "Construction began in 1974 but suffered from a series of cost overruns, delays and enormous public protests.", and it "demonstrated very poor reliability and had a historical capacity factor of less than 7%." (after being connected to the grid for 20+ years).

The nuke industry claims that it was dumped for political reasons, completely ignoring its industrial and technical failures.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has started. They are doing actual tests of waste packages in actual final disposition tunnels. See the photo gallery. > When all waste will be inert we may evaluate the sanitary consequences. Meanwhile the dangerous hot waste may or may not harm. I don't understand how you can justify this statement. Again, commercial nuclear waste in dry casks has never hurt anyone and probably never will, yet nuclear power has…

The Chernobyl plant, according to officials speaking before the disaster, also was so sure that it could be built on the Red Square. Those savants were nowhere to be found during the disaster. You play the usual card of nuke proponent, which is to describe things just as if not emitting carbon during energy production implies nukes. This is not true. Many renewables, mainly wind and solar, are pertinent. This is abso…

I like anecdotes. I like data better. Nuclear is a very safe energy source compared to the majority of what powers the world, period. Wind and solar are also extremely safe.

Wind is very low carbon, about 11 gCO2-eq/kWh. Solar PV is a bit higher, around 40. Hydro varies dramatically from excellent to terrible based on biogenic methane emissions (region dependent). Fracked natural gas is abhorrent with >400 gCO2/kWh, and even worse (in some cases worse than coal) when the short term warming effects of methane are factored in. Nuclear clocks in at 12, beat out only by wind. These are the IPCC full lifecycle numbers, of course.

Here's another good (and live) view of worldwide carbon emissions, in CO2-eq/kWh generated [1]. You'll note that a lot of very low carbon countries are very high in nuclear.

I am a pragmatist. I see a climate challenge and I want all low-carbon energy sources. Everyone cheers for wind and solar, including me. They're doing phenomenally. We need 10x or more of them. No one disagrees with this. Nuclear is far more controversial, and is the topic at hand in this subthread. Don't tell me I'm anti wind and solar just because I point out challenges with them. All energy sources have challenges. I just refuse to tie my hands and not support nuclear because of irrational and unscientific fear. I want all low-carbon hands on deck. It's much more interesting for me to explain the basis behind why nuclear is actually less dangerous and scary than the vast majority of people think than it is for me to say we need more wind and solar.

Regarding electricity's share of total emissions, the only non-combustion solution that I'm aware of for transportation (40% of emissions) is electrification. As buses, cars, trains, and even short-run airplanes electrify, we can decarbonize the transportation sector by using decarbonized electricity. Hydrogen is another option, and nuclear reactors are one of the most excellent ways to make hydrogen without lots of carbon emission. As for process heat, it's difficult for anything to reach fossil-fuel temperatures, but there are lots of interesting efforts with hydrogen blast furnaces and electric arc furnaces that may get us there. Electrification as a means to reduce total emissions is a need shared by all low-carbon energy sources that I'm aware of, including wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, and nuclear. Advanced nuclear and solar thermal are unique in their abilities to reach process heat temperatures.

My goal and value system is all about decarbonizing the world effectively and justly. I want to base my decisions on data and rationale. I'm looking for people to help in this goal, which I consider noble.

[1] https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=map&solar=false&remote=...

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#295
post #90

I think one of the most promising reactors in this area is the untegral molten salt reactor. It operates at low pressures, is passively cooled and has already mounted some regulatory hurdles.

And if you let the fuel salt cool off enough, the radioactivity in it makes fluorine gas. Yum!

Why would the radioactivity make fluorine gas?

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#296
post #290
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to prepend "Respectfully" in order to insult. You can just go ahead and say it directly, and what you are doing is helping climate change skeptics by hiding the fact that coal that was once in the ground is now being burned and released into the air as pollution. If you dig out coal and burn it in a power plant then you are producing pollution and contributing to global warming. No amount of exporting…

It's not being hidden, it's being exhaustively documented. Of course burning coal sucks, and we should replace those power plants. But until then we can also discourage their use by subsidising clean energy at their expense. That's what this system is meant to accomplish. It's beyond me how someone can look at what's effectively a tax on non-renewables as whitewashing those energy sources. You tax behavior you want t…

When society collectively decide that something suck we have a simple mechanism to fix it. We make it illegal. Theft suck. We have thus laws against it.

A carbon tax in the energy sector helps but it is a rather inefficient method compared to simply keeping the coal in the ground. People keep finding ways to make profits from digging the coal out and burning it, and Sweden is currently a customer to those people.

The system has not been successful in keeping the coal in the ground. What it currently accomplishing in Sweden is the opposite, as Swedish use of coal energy has increased. A simple law would fix that, and it doesn't require a discussion about what energy should be subsidized. The only thing required is a stroke of the law writers pen. It is the easiest, simplest and most efficient solution in keeping the coal in the ground and the only reason people are not doing it is that people want to keep buying the energy produced by burning coal.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#297
post #296
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not being hidden, it's being exhaustively documented. Of course burning coal sucks, and we should replace those power plants. But until then we can also discourage their use by subsidising clean energy at their expense. That's what this system is meant to accomplish. It's beyond me how someone can look at what's effectively a tax on non-renewables as whitewashing those energy sources. You tax behavior you want t…

When society collectively decide that something suck we have a simple mechanism to fix it. We make it illegal. Theft suck. We have thus laws against it. A carbon tax in the energy sector helps but it is a rather inefficient method compared to simply keeping the coal in the ground. People keep finding ways to make profits from digging the coal out and burning it, and Sweden is currently a customer to those people. The…

The energy credit system accomplishes some things that your proposals don't.

It's not realistic to make burning coal and other non-renewables illegal in Europe, less than 20% of the grid has been transitioned[1]. You can't just shut off 80% of the grid without European civilization as we know it coming to an end for the foreseeable future.

In the meantime there's plenty of uses of energy that can be built in one EU/EEA country or the other, or shifted between countries, and which will respond to price incentives.

E.g. a data center that's not ping-time sensitive or bulk bandwidth sensitive is probably better placed in Iceland than The Netherlands from an ecological perspective.

The impact of the energy credit system is to shift that sort of use between countries and energy providers, to the extent that their use will respond to price incentives.

It is relatively ineffective in the larger scheme of things, just like our buildup of renewable energy is proceeding at a relatively slow pace. But that's not an argument against the systems in place per-se, just like some country setting their VAT at 1% isn't an argument against VAT structurally.

The EU/EEA agreement doesn't have explicit tax-raising powers, so it's really not the case that a simple law could do the same thing. This system is effectively a way to create a new EEA-wide tax through a back-door mechanism.

Any national tax policy wouldn't be as effective, because individual countries in the EEA market can't or aren't going to enact law that mandates that some of their companies move abroad because their own energy market isn't renewable enough.

It also gives individual consumers a way to vote with their money to increase the buildup of renewables.

As an example, I live in Amsterdam where (as far as I know) I have no choice but to consume electrons sourced by burning fossil fuels[2].

However, I have opted to pay extra to buy "green" (wind and solar) energy, but the energy that comes out of my power plugs as I type this comment is still sourced from burning coal/gas.

Am I just participating in a gigantic sham? No, because what I'm doing is buying the production of energy capacity corresponding to my own use for use elsewhere on the power grid. So I'm taking part in reducing the overall demand for fossil fuels, and thus doing my own small part in reducing pollution.

By the way, from a cursory glance the current Swedish carbon tax is at best around 1/4 per-ton of the cost of sequestering that CO^2 back into the ground.

If that's the case of course it's not really all that effective, but just like in the case of the energy credit system the problem there isn't with the very concept of the system of a carbon tax (which is probably the single best way to deal with the overall problem), but with the value that tax is set at.

1. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

2. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrale_Hemweg

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear technology scales horribly downwards A small steam turbine is an apparatus with about the size and complexity of a car engine. But if it has to be licensed and inspected by the NRC then you can forget about it. And you could make a little RTG that could power a phone for a decade. Even with the terrible efficiency of thermoelectric generators it would still be much smaller than a lithium battery that could…

I'd accept a thick phone if it had a huge battery life. But then how do you perform waste disposal? People are, largely, irresponsible jackasses who would think nothing of throwing old RTGs into the ocean / landfill / other improper decomissioning methods. Also the potential damage is a lot higher e.g. if you're in a car accident and the RTG gets punctured vs. just a Li-ion battery catching fire. In terms of cleanup…

Using an RTG to power your phone isn't a real suggestion. Lithium batteries can last for a day (especially if you're willing to accept a thicker phone) and the inconvenience of having to charge it while you're asleep is minimal. A more realistic application might be something like military radios where you may want them to keep working for extended periods of time in areas where electricity is not available, and then you have an organizational structure that can take care of proper disposal.

The point is that it's not a scaling problem. It's practical to make an RTG that small as a technical matter.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you let the fuel salt cool off enough, the radioactivity in it makes fluorine gas. Yum!

Why would the radioactivity make fluorine gas?

Radiolysis.

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/4109510

The MSR saw some of the fluorine react with UF4 to make UF6, which is volatile. There is the potential for fuel to be volatilized and transported elsewhere in the reactor system, causing possible concern for criticality accidents.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plant was active and very well-maintained, and its operator even planned to extend it (2 more reactors). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_Daiichi_Nuclear_Powe...

Yes, but the original location of site would not be approved today, precisely because of the risk that actualised in the tsunami (even though it is an extremely rare an unlikely occurrence - a tsunami which caused large-scale devastation where the nuclear plant's problems were just a minor issue compared to the huge loss of life and material damage from tsunami itself).

Indeed, however it doesn't change much the logical conclusion drawn by many: the risk is not adequately managed, not sufficiently "under control", there are configurations leading to a disaster (dangerous material escaping, especially on a large scale). Even if such disasters are relatively rare (given the reactor.year activity), they periodically happen and many think that any new one may be even more catastrophic. Add to this that many, in the public, now know that not a single insurer or re-insurer accepts to cover nuclear risk.

As for the impact on health we will only be able to assess it when the last dangerous waste dispersed by the Fukushima disaster will be innocuous, the last induced-cancer known...

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