Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Help me ask why you didn't just

blog.plover.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 363 posts

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#291

Post by nkrisc »

morgancmartin wrote: post #275
nkrisc wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The directness here is important. If you start playing word games to imply things (non-threatening, non-accusative) etc., you confuse the message. You know what's worse than a threatening or accusative question? One where the recipient spends their time trying to guess what second meaning might be implied with the obviously convoluted wording. Clear, direct questions that have only one distinct query. >> Would there…

> Some people might be offended or sensitive to direct questions, but that's for them to work through with their therapist. It's a fair position to take, but in some cases where successful communication is a necessity, that stance doesn't cut it. My go-to heuristic is "the wordier the question, the more likely it is to be perceived as well intentioned." So if I'm wondering why someone didn't use sshd, I might say, "S…

At the end of the day, if I need something from someone, I'll contort my discourse in any way necessary to achieve the end I need. Even if it means tip-toeing around someone who's extra sensitive. I'm not out to make my life harder. And to be clear, when I say "direct" I'm implying neutrality. I'm not talking about direct, yet antagonistic, questioning (which I'd argue is less direct than neutral questioning).

In person communication is less of an issue because you can use things like body language and tone to take the edge off.

However I've found through experience that the more words you add, the number of possible interpretations increases, and the likelihood you get a relevant answer decreases. Back to the example at hand, maybe it would make sense to chain two distinct queries together: Did you try sshd? If so, what was the result?

It's my belief that in written communication, clarity of purpose is king.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#292

Post by dbtx »

ikeboy wrote: post #32

"what happened when you tried sshd?"/"what went wrong when you tried sshd?"

This is the other side of a bad coin: "why didn't you" assumes they didn't. Just asking if they did will automatically include asking why they didn't and what went wrong when they did, whatever the case may be, and without the tone of either of those.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#293

Post by tomxor »

dalore wrote: post #268
tomxor wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've taken this a step further and often completely flip the wording to match the intended assumption which is that I am wrong : > I can't figure out the reason X doesn't work This is more often what I really mean, i.e there is some obvious solution (to me at least), but it's too obvious that they have likely already considered it and there is an issue with it... but they have been working on the problem longer than…

The article mentions the problems with those: > I'm not clever enough to understand why you didn't use sshd. It would take a fucking genius to figure that out.

"I can't figure out" != "I'm not clever enough"

I think saying "i'm not clever enough" (one of the options presented in the article) was never a realistic option given the premise of the article, which is: "a problem somebody’s been working on for a week or a month or maybe years". In this context it's also the least likely interpretation of any other question unless you are a telepath, the limitations on the time you've spent thinking about it are implicit, it does not mean you are incapable of figuring it out...

The other person has been working on this significantly longer than you, this is the reason you can't quickly deduce everything they know. The whole point of this type of questioning is to try and extract some of the results of work the other person has already achieved, for the purpose of better understanding the problem, guide further enquiry and possibly allow you to make useful suggestions.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#295

Post by scott_s »

dalore wrote: post #268
tomxor wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've taken this a step further and often completely flip the wording to match the intended assumption which is that I am wrong : > I can't figure out the reason X doesn't work This is more often what I really mean, i.e there is some obvious solution (to me at least), but it's too obvious that they have likely already considered it and there is an issue with it... but they have been working on the problem longer than…

The article mentions the problems with those: > I'm not clever enough to understand why you didn't use sshd. It would take a fucking genius to figure that out.

The difference, and the problem, is the word "clever." If you leave it out, and just plainly state "I can't figure out why x doesn't work," it's less likely to be misunderstood, and it's an accurate representation of your current mental state.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#296

Post by sagebird »

I think it is best left unasked.

If you care to know, you can take a day to think about it. If it is not worth you thinking about it, then let it go. But if you care enough - Learn about what they did, scan the source code, look at how the tool is used.

If you come to the conclusion that they made a bad decision - ok - keep that to yourself. If you come to the conclusion that their solution actually is better, mention it to them enthusiastically and build a bit of trust with them by showing that you are willing to think and inspect, not just ask drive-by questions.

If you see someone constantly re-inventing the wheel, then look for an opportunity to discuss solutions before the next project begins. If you are showing up only during presentations, then you are too late to apply your knowledge. If the goal is to improve things and you are knowledgeable and clever, you need to be in the brainstorming business, not the "embarrass this guy during presentation" part.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#297

Post by NotableAlamode »

rpedela wrote: post #250
NotableAlamode wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Praise in public, criticize in private In my (considerable) experience of working in large organisation (private and public), whether this works or not depends strongly on the power differential between praiser/criticiser and praisee/criticisee. Basically this is the most likely outcome: - Powerless praises publicly and criticises privately: criticism will be ignored, praise will be milked. - Powerless praises privat…

The phrase "you are wrong" is one of the fastest ways to get someone's back up against the wall. In your example, completely removing that phrase doesn't change the meaning and it eliminates negativity.

I completely agree with you.

That's why publicly saying "you are wrong" is so powerful (and so dangerous). The powerful are not used to be challenged in public. They typically respond by a combination of

- reframing, changing the subject

- attacking, belittling you

You can see this in action in stand-up comedy with hecklers. If you anticipate this reaction, you can turn this around very effectively in a professional context (not in standup-comedy though): "I note you are NOT answering my question, instead ...".

With great power comes great responsibility.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#299

Post by scott_s »

theaeolist wrote: post #229
carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

In a communication course my employer asked me to take a while back we were taught to a) never ask a yes-no question and b) never ask "why". So I would reformulate simply as "How would sshd function in this setting?"

I disagree with your communication course. In technical discussions, asking "why?" is one of the most important things you can do. You are ignorant. The person you are speaking to is not, and they are teaching you. But in order to teach you, they need to know what you don't know. Asking "why?" tells them what to explain.

I agree with danShumway's take: if I received your question, I would furrow my brow, pause for a moment trying to understand what the real question is, then probably plainly state: "It doesn't. Why are you asking?" Then you would explain that it seems to you like it would solve the problem, and I would explain why it doesn't.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#300

Post by rbavocadotree »

It's funny reading all the debate about different wordings because it totally misses the point. The wording doesn't matter, only the delivery does. The recipients's interpretation of the question depends on who is saying it and how they say it. Whether or not they include the word "just" is irrelevant. Any single one of the phrases mentioned can be delivered in a way that causes offense or doesn't.
Post reply on HN