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Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

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Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#291
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It drove me up the wall and I didn't finish it. All this "if you answered c, e and f, we are not of the same opinion" feels passive-aggressive to me. The whole thing feels manipulative to me. It makes me think that people try an insincere way of talking to me, in order to manipulate my feelings and reaction. I've had huge discussions with friends who try to live the book, and neither of us could make the other see th…

> And you telling your boyfriend that him leaving makes you feel very alone is just another way of saying 'please don't go'". It's a more informative way of saying it. You include information about what the reasoning behind your request is, and how important it is to you. Then he can consider whether going out is more important to him than your request is to you, or if there is a way to compromise on your conflicting…

You're mentioning a request, but such a request is notably absent in op's example: "But I don't tell him what to do, to stay at home, for example. I only talk about my own perception and feelings."

It reads to me both like an expectation at reading minds and a mild form of emotional blackmail.

This might be non-violent, but it's also lacking clarity. In the end it's not clear if extra cuddling before leaving and after coming back would please the woman in the example. Or if calling her every day would. Or if she could just visit her sister to avoid her feeling of loneliness.

I did not notice an explicit negotiation or any negotiation at all in that example.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please no. That reads like a cheat sheet for sociopaths. Conversations between good actors don't need to be engineered. These techniques are probably great if you're a police officer, lawyer, executive, or salesperson, but let's not turn our workplaces into that internally. I'm also in software development, and especially in this field, just talk directly to people. If you find that you can't connect with your team a…

Disagree 100%. “just talk directly to people” reads to me like an ill-informed tactic that allows all our worst habits to run amok. Studying these techniques and making them habitual is the key to a kinder, more thoughtful, and even more effective and productive teamwork experience. I had a coworker who addressed my team about some difficulty they were having collaborating with us. They spoke directly, telling us we…

If you became fearful and got your act together, I'd say their approach worked.

Of course, apologizing afterwards is pretty weak. Either they were forced to do it or they're not in control of their emotions.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hurt feelings are not violence. By that logic, the existence of gay people is violence against religious fundamentalists.

So a parent who relentlessly verbally bullies their child every day is what, just exchanging ideas?

I would say they are a terrible parent, they are a bully, and an awful human being.

But not violent.

Just the same as I wouldn't say pirating a movie was theft, but by saying that I'm not saying I think it's OK - these are just different concepts.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence isn't always physical.

Violence is always physical, by definition. Sometimes the word is also used for poetic effect though.

May I refer you to the second definition of violence, per Merriam Webster?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence

Violence, by definition, is not always physical.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#295
I discovered NVC decades ago and have been using it ever since.

Many people complain that NVC sounds unnatural. This is because it is like learning a new language. It sounds unnatural when any native speaker teaches someone their language, because they speak slowly, in simple phrases, and repeat everything at least twice. That is exactly what Marshal did when teaching NVC.

Once you are fluent, it sounds very different and works beautifully. I've occasionally offer help to couples on the verge of breaking up, reworking what they are saying into NVC, and the effects are profound.

Couples on opposite sides of the room, who can't look at each other, end up tightly holding each other, crying together. They feel understood for the first time and understand the pain in each other that motivates each other's hurtful feeling actions.

Then I start teaching them to do it themselves. When they do, the relationship improves. When they don't, they keep needing to come back again and again, and the relationship slowly dies.

I still tend to listen to the full lecture on YouTube about once a year or two as a refresher. As far as I'm concerned, this is one of the most important life skills anyone can learn, and NVC should be taught in all schools.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>Your workplace sounds toxic Well, it's the Marine Corps. It ain't a rose garden.[1][2] >>>full of backstabbing jerks Actually quite the contrary. If anything we are well-known for our solidarity.[3] Assuming there aren't issues due to rank/the command hierarchy, most personal disagreements are handled face-to-face. People try to stiff-arm work responsibilities off to other offices but I think that is endemic to an…

I'm generally a fan of direct communication but also find NVC interesting, and have thought about this a bit. Although I have nothing to do with the military now I trained to fly with the RAF volunteer reserve and I remember my instructor punching me once (not particularly hard, but the sort of thing that could easily get you fired in most jobs) when I messed up a turn. My folks knew a few high ranking army types som…

>>>It strikes me that the military way of doing things, while appropriate in battle, might have downsides for those who end up flying desks.

I once read that the "Mad Men" business culture of the 60's, much of which is now considered "toxic", was largely built by WW2 and Korean War veterans. Guys who had spent years in those traumatizing battles had a unique perspective on work and communication that perhaps hasn't aged well for everyone else. Wish I could dig up a link to that....

>>>In particular if people are so accustomed to taking orders, how do you know whether or not you have an optimal balance of command versus information flowing upwards and initiative from subordinates?

1. The commander sets and disseminates alerts called "Commander's Critical Information Requirements" (CCIRs). These are key pieces of information that EVERYONE should be on the look-out for, and route up the chain as soon as possible. This is stuff that the commander considers to have great effect on his decision-making, possibly leading him to pursue a different course of action.

2. Mission-type orders.[1] This is where subordinates exercise their initiative. A commander tells you WHAT he wants done, you figure out HOW to do it best. You are usually only given a few hard restrictions on what not to do, but that's typically only to prevent things like fratricide or potentially screwing up the bigger plan. With mission-type orders, subordinate leaders are understood to be closer to the problem, and therefore better positioned to solve it quickly and efficiently.

>>>And does the authoritarian system produce good enough people in the highest ranks, or might top brass skills be better if they weren't so shaped by it themselves?

That's a very tough issue that the military is grappling with. Arguments have been made that career progression is too rigidly defined. General Petraeus said he had a highly unusual professional education and career path, contrary to the conventional wisdom of "how to get promoted". There's been numerous articles painting most US generals as "optimistic but otherwise mediocre yes-men".[2] The Air Force struggles with the "Fighter Mafia" because all of their leadership is men who spent most of their adult lives flying fighter jets, and they throw shade on pretty much every other priority or mission set. The promotion system worked when there were fewer "moving parts", fewer specializations. But with the explosion in complexity of warfare, both from a technical-level (UAVs, electronic warfare, cyber security, etc..) and from an operations perspective (full spectrum operations and the Three-Block War[3]).....guys who have spent 20 years just doing infantry work find themselves with some limitations in their professional experience. Especially considering how many of them were selected in the first place, when they were brand-new officers: cardio-respiratory endurance and "cultural fit", mostly. This is partly because the military, and the Marine Corps in particular, considers everyone an equally-competent generalist. It was probably true in 1945 but not today. Perfect example:

Me: "We're making changes to the Sharepoint site for the training exercise. It's gonna be heavier and eat up more bandwidth."

My (tank-driving) boss: "Is that gonna impact our...spectrum?" [context: the new General at the time was harping on the importance of EM signature management]

Me: "No Sir, because for this exercise all of that Sharepoint network traffic will be going over the fibre optic links in the ground, not over the air via our radio antennas or satellite links."

My tanker boss wasn't a dumb guy. But he has no formal education in electrical engineering, radio theory, etc... You can't just drop a white paper in his lap[4], and expect him to speak intelligently on the subject the next day. Especially at 50+ years old. He would just drop "...spectrum?" into conversations randomly whenever I mentioned a technical issue (which was often). Now, we do have very senior technical specialists, but they are almost never the operations officers or commanders of major combat formations. They play a support role, and rightfully so. Everything exists to SUPPORT Operations, which is almost always (infantry/armor/artillery). But how those Ground Combat leaders have been prepared for even 4th-generation warfare leaves a lot to be desired, IMO...

>>>I guess you don't have to deal with longer term burnout issues as most people leave by the time they're 40.

Our burnout timeline is simply accelerated. I've seen mid-career professionals (early 30's) with combat deployments burnt out in under 3 years at high op-tempo units. Talent management in the military is completely broken[5, pg6 of PDF]. The military has a 3-year work location rotation for most people, which means every summer we suffer ~30% turnover in personnel, which wrecks your local-level institutional experience and proficiency. There are certain multi-national military exercises we do annually and you see the same mistakes/friction points EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. As you said, most people quit around ~40yo....but Colonels and Generals usually need 20-25yrs to get promoted. So your senior leaders aren't necessarily the best...merely those who could endure the soul-grinding brutality of the system the longest.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics

[2]https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/11/general...

[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Block_War

[4]https://tinyurl.com/yym2vlpv

[5]https://news.usni.org/2019/07/17/gen-bergers-strategic-guida...

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#297
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVC is a great framework. I've watched the 9 hour training by Marshall Rosenberg on YouTube more than once, and I keep finding ways that it can be useful in all relationships. It's basically a way to be both non-passive-aggressive and compassionate, while having boundaries. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPNVcESwoWu4lI9C3bhkY...

> It's basically a way to be both non-passive-aggressive and compassionate But the examples given as "observation" read as passive-aggressive to me. Whether you say "Eleanor procrastinates" or "Eleanor wait to do all her studying the night before the exam" it's still the same thing. If you hear this type of comment regularly (eg you have ADHD) then it'll still affect you negatively.

My understanding of this:

"Eleanor waited to do all her studying the night before the exam" — that's data: it would show up on a video recording of the scene.

"Eleanor procrastinates" — that's a judgement/interpretation/opinion: it exists in someone's mind (i.e. the person making the judgement).

This isn't to say "judgements bad, don't make judgements". That would be nonsensical. We all make judgements/interpretations all the time, they're a necessary part of the human experience.

But (in my experience) it's really _really_ helpful to differentiate between these two categories. It opens the whole thing up and allows things to proceed more smoothly and effectively (in conjunction with other tools in the toolset - but this is core).

To expand on the example: if, as Eleanor, I hear the judgement I'm probably, yes, more likely to shut down and get defensive - which gets none of us anywhere. OTOH if I hear the data, there is then perhaps more room to have a conversation about what's going on. It might be that my ADHD is contributing to this behaviour, and perhaps if I get that it has a negative impact on someone else, I might decide to ask them (or someone else) for support in working out a better way to deal with this. Or I might simply be asking for more understanding, different structures. I don't know. But the kind of mutual acknowledgement of experience, feelings and wants that I'm talking about tends to be shut down by unowned judgements presented as fact.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#298
post #2

If you're in software development, especially on a development team, these ideas about nonviolent communication (NVC) may be able to help you and your team. The approach is: observe facts -> note feelings -> uncover desires -> make requests. For software development, I recommend a NVC approach called "Crucial Conversations". I summarize it on my repo. https://github.com/joelparkerhenderson/crucial_conversations

Please no. That reads like a cheat sheet for sociopaths. Conversations between good actors don't need to be engineered. These techniques are probably great if you're a police officer, lawyer, executive, or salesperson, but let's not turn our workplaces into that internally. I'm also in software development, and especially in this field, just talk directly to people. If you find that you can't connect with your team a…

Yeah people are fucked up creatures more often than not.. what do you suggest? Improving communication seems like a great approach (assuming it actually works).

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#299
The older I grow, the more I realize that, in its barest essence, we are all 'good' human beings. But, thanks to self-help advice of the kind that aspires to teach you to be 'powerful', 'assertive', 'effective', 'take no for an answer', we are fed ideas that we need to behave/talk differently to be successful.

But, it is not what we should be striving for. It is meaningful connections. By treating others the way you would want to be treated yourself. That is all. Everything else follows this, including success at work. In most cases, anecdotally, this has worked for me except when I encounter people, so bought into this corporate powerplay myths that they have instead become people who have changed their basic identity to behave in a certain manner.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>Your workplace sounds toxic Well, it's the Marine Corps. It ain't a rose garden.[1][2] >>>full of backstabbing jerks Actually quite the contrary. If anything we are well-known for our solidarity.[3] Assuming there aren't issues due to rank/the command hierarchy, most personal disagreements are handled face-to-face. People try to stiff-arm work responsibilities off to other offices but I think that is endemic to an…

I greatly appreciate your perspective here. Makes me think about whether certain communication styles work better in different contexts. I remember asking a vet what the communication style was in the military and he said, "Someone who outranks you tells you what to do and there is always someone who outranks you." Now, I don't know how representative that is of the military as a whole, but it got me thinking: how wo…

>>>I remember asking a vet what the communication style was in the military and he said, "Someone who outranks you tells you what to do and there is always someone who outranks you." Now, I don't know how representative that is of the military as a whole

It's very accurate. ^_^

>>>but it got me thinking: how would that vet respond if he were to tell his wife what to do and she said no?

You have to foster "buy in". That's when leadership uses charisma to convince personnel to internalize the importance of the unit's mission. The husband needs the wife's participation in executing a task, that she should take ownership of her piece of the puzzle, in order to benefit them both. As a team. Shoulder-to-shoulder against the world. Hmmmmm, actually since you brought up relationship communication, the NVC process makes me think of parallels with some PUA principles and techniques....

>>>but perhaps it would work better in the lower-stress, lower-urgency situation with a flatter organizational structure, and that it could be useful to speak the two languages, so to say.

I think I understand your insights and comments on the scenario I posted. It's possible the key factor is the flatter organizational structure in many business environments, or cultures with less-transparent power structures (many Japanese businesses have a "soft power" leadership that isn't the official manager, for example).

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