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Why is modern web development so complicated?

vrk.dev

291–300 of 731 posts

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hard to update CSS. When was the last time you had a go at CSS? So much has changed since 2017. You can chuck out the pre-processor junk and just use CSS variables and CSS Grid. Productivity is 10x. You can even keep it simple so that a page just loads the CSS it needs instead of some 40,000 line ball of junk. Same with templates, if you are using CSS Grid you don't need the sea of div containers, you can just use…

Honest Question, how do I support our IE 11 Customers (8% of our MRR) with this approach?

That really depends on how quickly you can deprecate browsers that don't support modern features.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Edge

Edge is supposedly an option even back to Windows 7, though I don't believe it's a required security update. I haven't used a Windows 7 system in long enough that I'm not sure.

https://caniuse.com/css-grid

At this point it is reasonable to tell people they NEED to install a more modern (and more security up to date!) web browser, be it Google Chrome, Microsoft Edge, or Mozilla Firefox.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#292

It doesn't have to be complicated, if you get support from above. A few weeks ago I launched a new web site for a health care company. HTML, PHP, CSS, and MySQL. No frameworks. No javascript. No garbage. It replaced a site that was a mess of javascript libraries on top of frameworks on top of a half dozen jquery version and on and on and on. The company administrators, doctors, practitioners, etc... are so happy with…

Not that I disagree with your approach technically, but if I did that, I would have felt like I wasted my time. No job is secure and you did hardly any Resume Driven Development.

Also, if I were a team lead, I definitely wouldn’t have chosen that stack because it’s harder to recruit career driven developers who don’t want to work on tech that doesn’t help then build their resume.

When it’s time to land the next job, using $cool_kids_stack of the day, you will be at a disadvantage.

For context, when it comes to modern front end development, I’m barely above “not eat the chalk” level of competence so this is definitely not meant as a technical critique.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#293
The main reasons web development is complicated:

* Javascript has evolved from simple requirements e.g. flashy text to a full blown application environment, but there is relatively little base functionality included (e.g. compared to what you get in Java or C#) so people need to write those libs separately.

* The separate libraries above need to be included in your code, and copy/paste is not maintainable so some kind of module system is needed but JS doesn't come with one, so various people rolled their own and they competed for mindshare. 10 different standards.

* As above for UI frameworks. JS only has a basic framework included: the DOM. It's pretty good but doesn't scale "naked" to more complex apps, so again the community creates a whole bunch of those.

* As above for application frameworks (UX frameworks)? such as routers so that you can press the back button.

* Ah the back button - an example of where apps on the web have to care about something that desktop apps don't. There are other examples. Mixing http/https. Mobile responsive.

* CSS - I imagine originally designed for "documents" - now has to work well with "web apps".

* Javascript again - no static typing, many devs find it too easy to make mistakes, we have Typescript and other compile to JS languages.

* Because of the above complexity with have Babel, Browserify, Webpack etc. (one is never enough!)

* Then some genius decides to use JS for the back end and we have Node, NPM, and then because Node is so useful it becomes the front-end tool chain provider. So you use NPM to install Webpack, and the newbie has to figure out difference between dev dependencies and ordinary ones etc.

* git clone https://github.com/... and who knows what stack they've used. Oh they are using Browserify. Never used that. 2 hours reading the docs.

* Each framework then finds ways to get more complex organically. React, Redux etc. and all that.

* Again every other programmer is using 10^10 different combinations of frameworks and techs. Compare to C# Desktop development where it might be they are using Winforms or WPF - that's your only problem!

I could go on. I still copy and paste my favorite templates for getting started with NPM/Webpack/Typescript. Not sure I could demo how to get there from scratch again. All the recommended ones online seem to have beartraps in them and stuff I don't understand.

But remember you all you need is a ! It's easy!

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#294
post #49

It doesn't have to be complicated, if you get support from above. A few weeks ago I launched a new web site for a health care company. HTML, PHP, CSS, and MySQL. No frameworks. No javascript. No garbage. It replaced a site that was a mess of javascript libraries on top of frameworks on top of a half dozen jquery version and on and on and on. The company administrators, doctors, practitioners, etc... are so happy with…

Damn, you broke into my top-secret consulting role ;) I completely agree with all of this. There is probably a billion-dollar market out there for rewriting garbage business apps that were developed using the hipster tech flavor of the week.

Which is more hipster: using the latest modern web framework, or bragging about how you don't use modern web frameworks?

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#295
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But "Javascript makes you build shit software" isn't actionable in the sense that its definitely incorrect.

It's not Javascript that makes you write shit software. It's trying to write software that runs correctly on a wide variety of platforms that you don't control. reaperducer's rewrite was an improvement, not because he replaced Javascript with PHP, but because he moved all the logic to the server, which is a single environment he controls. He could have used Node instead of PHP and achieved the same thing.

It's definitely not about the environment. Yes, there are browser inconsistencies, but for the most part, this is not a major issue today. The problem of js apps is handling asynchronicity, having to fetch data from the server and managing UI state and in the case of an SPA, having to take care of routing, permissions, timeouts, errors etc. When you sum it all up, you end up with a front-end that mostly needs to replicate all logic from the server, apart from running the sql queries.

On the other side, when you render on the server, everything is already there. It's easy to write logic when the data you need is an sql query away and all you need to do is spit out some html. What gets a bit complex is keeping working state between pages and this usually requires handling sessions, cookies etc.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#296
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't build software and then we won't have shit software

Having bad software or a bad website is very often not an existential threat to companies, but having no software or no website is very often an existential threat.

The secret is, you don't have to not write and/or delete everything indiscriminately.

The second thing is: companies do not only try to avoid existential threats; they also attempt to have economical approaches. If anything needs to be maintained, there is the potential, if it is crappy, to make maintenance costly.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#297

It doesn't have to be complicated, if you get support from above. A few weeks ago I launched a new web site for a health care company. HTML, PHP, CSS, and MySQL. No frameworks. No javascript. No garbage. It replaced a site that was a mess of javascript libraries on top of frameworks on top of a half dozen jquery version and on and on and on. The company administrators, doctors, practitioners, etc... are so happy with…

Wait that some manager hears about Angular 3000.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#298
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Install NodeJS 2) npx create-react-app demo How many steps does it take to start from scratch with other toolchains?

1) Install Django 2) django-admin startproject mysite Edit: To be completely fair this doesn't anything for the front end, unlike create-react-app. I'm not a web developer so I don't really have a dog in this fight.

I guess my point was it's really easy to get started, and it's a really common misconception that starting a SPA is difficult. It's just as easy as getting started on any other toolchain, if not easier.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But "Javascript makes you build shit software" isn't actionable in the sense that its definitely incorrect.

There is some truth to it. The whole ecosystem encourages a lot of things that are bad for developing simple, stable, good performing systems. I don't go anywhere near that world unless I have to for these reasons. You get all the downsides of dynamic language ecosystems, with worse compile times than Rust (webpack etc).

I try to know just enough of the $cool_kids front end stack to pass an interview, but I’m very honest - I don’t like front end development and that’s not my forte. Besides, front end developers are a dime a dozen. Your typical software as a service CRUD company, is looking for mere competence and pays at that rate. I have no interest in competing in a commodity market.
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