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Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

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Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#291

Post by blt »

egypturnash wrote: post #119
lr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we please stop referring to these services as "sharing"? Lyft actually started as a company that coordinated the sharing of rides, i.e., no money was involved. But the "sharing" pretense has long since past for all of these companies.

We need a new word for "taxi companies with cute apps, unsustainable pricing/wages and lots of Silicon Valley venture capital propping them up" to distinguish them from old-school taxi companies if we're gonna quit saying "rideshare". Any suggestions?

gig cabs

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#292

Post by dnautics »

thebradbain wrote: post #182
dnautics wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever done contract coding? You don't always get to set the rates, because the rate for the contract is posted, and the other side is not going to negotiate.

I think in that case though it’s fine (even expected) because I can choose to take or not take it and find work elsewhere as a freelancer — the pro-labor argument with Uber/Lyft is that it’s systemic versus freelance work between two individuals is personal.

having been an uber/lyft driver professionally for a year and half, I could definitely choose to take or not take it a find work elsewhere. Yes there were incentives to not reject too many, but that's true of general contracting work, too.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#293

Post by rosege »

cypherpunks01 wrote: post #47

This is really curious, in that it appears to be a normal strike for higher wages, except it's being coordinated on an hourly basis for just a few minutes until the company agrees to pay more! Contractors can decide when and how they want to work, and therefore determine the price at which to sell their labor at, so to me it seems they are simply exercising their rights here. Like others have mentioned, if most drive…

Not 100% sure I'd call it a strike but its just the free market working quickly. I have a feeling though this will spread around the world and be adapted by drivers in many other countries. I've traveled a bit in South America and Uber drivers there really do earn barely anything - I dont know how they afford the gas - e.g. 1/2 hour trip for $3-$4.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#294

Post by ummonk »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #225
ummonk wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cartels colluding together to artificially reduce supply in a market is often considered illegal market manipulation. That lyft is acting as a middle-man to set market-clearing prices here doesn't change that.

This was brought up elsewhere in the thread, and it's a valid concern. But consider that this might instead be a strike. Drivers want to be paid $Y, so they refuse to work until Lyft agrees. I'm not sure where the line is between the two. But given that the market in question is the drivers' labor — and the ongoing question of whether the drivers are employees or contractors of these multi-billion dollar companies —…

Yeah, and I'm not sure what's described in the article need even be considered "labor organizing". It seems to be just drivers exercising their power to not drive if the market rates aren't high enough. It seems like the weird signing off from the app actions wouldn't be needed if Lyft had better provisions for drivers to enter the rates that they're willing to provide rides at.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#295

Post by colejohnson66 »

la_barba wrote: post #278
klausjensen wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Really makes you long for the transparent, posted pricing of municipal taxis ...Absolutely not. I live in Malta, where Uber does not exist, but similar services do + local regulated taxis. It is extremely clear who gets a rating and who does not give a f### about reputation and repeat business. The only ones who use the real taxis here are tourists. I don't know anybody local (expat or native), who would use the "…

Taxi's are not allowed to price gouge, they also cannot refuse you service, etc, etc. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Depends on the state. Also, the GP mentioned Malta, which isn’t the US.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#296

Post by colejohnson66 »

asdffdsa wrote: post #289

Ahh, the qualities of competitive markets. If theres antitrust laws, there should be similar policies from the workers' side as well.

So we should go after strikers because they’re depriving their employer of money?

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#297

Post by KWD »

nabergh wrote: post #230
llamataboot wrote: post #104

Few things interesting here - One is that the workers are getting paid more per the algorithm that these companies designed to charge customers - that is, they are getting the company to facilitate higher payments but the company itself isn't being charged more! So in that case, the drivers are simply arguing that uber/lyft are artificially undervaluing their time because clearly these passengers are willing to pay 1…

I wouldn't be so convinced that passengers are willing to pay these surge prices to go home. Sure, the first time a passenger encounters this artificial surge, they're already planning on taking uber/lyft home so they'll pay it because they probably don't have another option immediately available. But the next time a passenger arrives at DCA (could be a month or two), they might remember uber/lyft is expensive when t…

First time I encountered surge pricing on a return flight (almost doubled the normal fare) is when I started looking at airport parking again. I then discovered I could prepay parking (DFW) and it is 30-50% off normal rate (and several times during special promotions I only paid $6/day). On short trips Uber/Lyft would actually be more than airport parking. For a week long trip it would be comparable, but that is assuming not impacted by surge pricing again.

I still use Uber/Lyft at my destination (paying close attention to rate), but at home, never again.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#298

Post by wlesieutre »

chrismeller wrote: post #150
wlesieutre wrote: post #12

News flash: if you go out of your way to classify your entire workforce as contractors, you don't get to decide when they work or not. It turns out this has consequences on both sides. If Lyft wants to decide when their drivers are working, there's a process for this: 1) Hire employees 2) Give them a schedule 3) Pay them hourly plus mileage

I find it hard to agree. Hear me out... They are contractors because they do not have any set obligation for time. Rate of pay or overall pay has nothing at all to do with that. According to the IRS they do not have a set schedule and they are contractors (that is 1099, not W2). So they are contractors. What does that have to do with pay? Absolutely nothing. You want x and are willing to pay y. Maybe there’s an oppor…

>They are contractors because they do not have any set obligation for time. Rate of pay or overall pay has nothing at all to do with that. According to the IRS they do not have a set schedule and they are contractors (that is 1099, not W2).

I'm not saying they're not contractors, I'm saying if Uber wants drivers who will work at a specific constant rate instead of signing out and demanding surge rates before they'll sign back in, then that's too bad for Uber. They created a market for driver contractors, and the drivers are participating in it. If they want shift employees who are obligated to stay logged in when a plane lands, they can hire some.

>In this case Uber offered you $x. You agreed to $x. You have no schedule, which is the perk of the job vs driving a cab, where you will have a schedule.

It's working exactly as intended then, Uber offers $x, drivers say "I'm not interested in driving for $x." Uber automatically counters with "Fine, I'll pay you $y."

Uber could make their system more hesitant to offering surge pricing after a bunch of drivers sign out like this, but when it comes down to it this isn't even a strike. The drivers haven't agreed to take fares at the lower rate, and Uber isn't entitled to their labor at any particular cost. They can all go home if they want to.

>And as for your third point... Uber already charges me for both time and mileage. I don’t see any problem with them paying their drivers based on both... but from the drivers I’ve talked to they already do. I can’t speak for any other service at all.

My point is that if Uber wants drivers a fixed particular price than then their "everyone is contractors" solution isn't appropriate. They can hire employees on an hourly wage to take shifts where they're paid whether or not they're currently driving a fare (mileage on top of that is to cover vehicle expenses). Sometimes they'll be busy, other times they'll have a slow night.

They don't get to have their cheap no strings attached driver arrangement cake and then also whine when drivers sign off and prices spike.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#299

Post by laken »

rosege wrote: post #293
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #47

This is really curious, in that it appears to be a normal strike for higher wages, except it's being coordinated on an hourly basis for just a few minutes until the company agrees to pay more! Contractors can decide when and how they want to work, and therefore determine the price at which to sell their labor at, so to me it seems they are simply exercising their rights here. Like others have mentioned, if most drive…

Not 100% sure I'd call it a strike but its just the free market working quickly. I have a feeling though this will spread around the world and be adapted by drivers in many other countries. I've traveled a bit in South America and Uber drivers there really do earn barely anything - I dont know how they afford the gas - e.g. 1/2 hour trip for $3-$4.

I've also traveled in South America and relied on Uber heavily. I talked with a few drivers, and they all found Uber to actually be worth it. For example, Colombia's minimum wage when converted to 40hrs/wk/month comes out to ~$1.50/hr. It's not a bad gig there, and the cost of living is relatively low. The bigger problem is the danger of driving for Uber, as taxistas are not a fan of Uber drivers.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#300

Post by freeflight »

ikeboy wrote: post #209

They can just counteract this by refusing to turn on surge pricing if they detect a large number of drivers disappearing if they predict that they'll come back shortly. Should be easy to predict that pattern and counteract it, unless the drivers are willing to skip work for an extended period of time.

But why should they?

Both Uber and Lyft also profit from this because in the end it's the customers who pay the difference.

So I don't really see either of these companies wasting time and effort on fixing this "problem".

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