Live data from Hacker News

Explaining Sex Rate Changes

overcomingbias.com

291–300 of 588 posts

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#291

This is not news to anyone who has been following the changes in gender dynamics in the past ~15 years. Without giving an opinion on any side: there is (and will continue to be) growing instability when inequalities (relationship, wealth, or otherwise) result in a large portion of the population disaffected. Historically the solution to this particular problem has been enforced monogamy + the risk of pregnancy. Clear…

I'm still highly suspicious of the narrative all of this is premised on.

TFA mentions the low sample size of the original study, and augments it with Twitter polls. But TFA author's Twitter follows aren't exactly a representative sample of the population...

Furthermore, monogamy and sexual activity remains strong for people in their 30s, and I expect this will continue to be true in the future. Women are having children later, but there's still a strong preference for monogamy among people who choose to have children.

This article does a good job at summarizing the problems with the narrativein OP's post: https://ifstudies.org/blog/male-sexlessness-is-rising-but-no...

> It remains to be seen what the end result will be this time around.

More men will learn how to make themselves attractive people, so that women who aren't ready to have children yet are none-the-less invested in forming a strong and lasting relationship that includes a sexual component.

Some men won't accept this and they will be celibate for a good chunk of their 20s.

Oh well.

What should not happen is a regression to the sexual and gender role "morals" of the past. Quantitatively, there are at least as many women as men in the world. Qualitatively, "celibacy during your 20s" is not even remotely similar to the level of harm experienced by the bottom third of women for most of human history.

I also think that will not happen, and fears about social stability are enormously overblown. It's exceptionally unlikely that a small subgroup of men who already refuse to adapt is large enough and motivated enough to hold the rest of society at gunpoint.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#292

Reading through the comments, there's a shared narrative that emerges: Tinder, etc. leads to a skewed distribution of access to sexual partners based on attractiveness, which leads to unattractive men not having as many partners, which leads to pick-your-favorite-bad-consequence. And there are a lot of men in this thread feeling worried and depressed about this. While it's certainly true that you get more matches on…

> - Women care less about physical attractiveness - Women are less interested in hookups and enjoy them less - Women are more interested in romantic and emotional connections and long-term relationships

This is debatable. This is certainly truer for women in more traditional societies where they earned less than men, but as women climb up the corporate ladders you see them doing the same things in relationships as men.When liberated from patriarchal sexual norms female sexuality seems to converge to male sexuality, but cultural understanding of sexual relationship lags actual behavior by 40 years. Studies show that women have the same hard coded visceral, visual sexual physiological response as men, but the social constraints preventing women from acting have been relaxed.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#293
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet and dating apps surely play a part. It's also become more acceptable to be non-monogamous. I lived in the bay area for a while and hung out among queer circles in San Francisco. It seemed like nearly everyone was polyamorous and uninterested in being in a monogamous relationship. So much that I felt kind of obligated to try the poly thing myself for a while if I was going to date. I am a little worried a…

Michel Houellebecq (especially his first "Whatever", original title "Extension du domaine de la lutte", "Extension of the domain of the fight") should be obligatory reading for everybody, as it deals exactly with these issues- from a rather cynical and depressing point of view, of course.

Funny thing you mentioned it. While I personally think nobody should read his works, Houellebecq is the writer to peruse after contracting a terminal case of spiritual malaise. One thing I want to add is that Houellebecq's body of work is an assortment of potential solutions to this modern day problem which has become more pronounced in the US lately.

The Extension of the Domain of the Struggle (Whatever) is his first novel. The motif is that similar to economic inequality, due to sexual liberation, the sociosexual arena has become more winner-take-all, hence the extension in the title. The plot chronicles the disillusionment of a sexless programmer in denial after going on a road trip with a similarly dysfunctional co-worker who ended up commiting suicide. The story ends the protagonist going postal but offers no practical solution.

His next book The Elementary Particles follows two half-brothers who were dysfunctional in opposite ways. One was a complete sex addict who failed to individuate and the other became a monk like molecular biologist responsible for making sexual reproduction obsolete.

His next novel Platform is an in-depth analysis of the discontentment of sex tourism from the perspective of his alter ego, which is clearly formed by his own lived experience in Indonesia. I think it's his least coherent work FWIW.

The Possibility of an Island arguably follows the timeline of Atomised and describes the nature of love through the narrative of three clones of the same person from the hedonistic present, totalitarian future and hunter-gatherer post-apocalytic future.

Submission is about the return to traditionalism after a Muslim party won the election in France. The effect is complex but nominal as we all know there is no going back.

I am waiting for the English translation of Serotonin which should be released before end of next year.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enforced monogamy in western societies is part of a broader history of social control that came to exist because it was good at perpetuating itself It's one interpretation, good for those who accepts the faith tenets of post-structuralism. The other is that it came to exist because of its viability in particular economic conditions. Also, if acceptance of promiscuity as a social norm really benefits exactly women is…

I don't know what "post-structuralism" means and I don't know the supposed tenets you're referring to. But I agree you can also make an economic argument for why marriage has been an enduring institution in society throughout history. "Acceptance of promiscuity" is a bit of a contradiction in terms since "promiscuous" is inherently pejorative. I will say this: "promiscuity" has always been far more socially acceptabl…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism

Philosophy is a deep rabbit hole but cursory philosophy should really be mandatory in secondary education.

I'm not at all affiliated but I found the podcast Philosophise This to be very informative and interesting.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#295
post #108

Discussions like this drive me crazy. It's not hard to see what it is about society that's making so many people not have sex, and it's not, like, some subtle market effect involving their attractiveness. No matter how much you want find a market effect, it's due to _human stuff_, like people's actual lives and problems, not their behavior in some sex economy. There is nothing even close to an economy around sex. The…

> There is nothing even close to an economy around sex.

Absolutely wrong. Dating is one of the most efficient markets. Every individual decides who they will sleep with, date and marry based on a hierarchy of what they can get, what they think they're worth and how attractive they find the other person. There is far more agreement than disagreement in standards of attractiveness from person to person, if not, it would be fairly easy to go out and date just anyone. But no one wants to do that. Everyone tries to date the most attractive person they can get.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#296
post #26

As the article points out, fewer young men are having sex, but roughly the same number of young women are having sex. I wonder if dating apps (Tinder, Bumble, etc.) are leading women to have sex with a smaller cohort of desirable men. Years ago, OkCupid noted that a small percentage of men get an overwhelming percentage of messages from women. With the rise of "swipe right, swipe left" mobile dating apps, where peopl…

Re: OkCupid: do you mean this? https://web.archive.org/web/20170330131859/https://theblog.o...

I wonder why did okcupid remove this study

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#297

Reading through the comments, there's a shared narrative that emerges: Tinder, etc. leads to a skewed distribution of access to sexual partners based on attractiveness, which leads to unattractive men not having as many partners, which leads to pick-your-favorite-bad-consequence. And there are a lot of men in this thread feeling worried and depressed about this. While it's certainly true that you get more matches on…

> - Women care less about physical attractiveness - Women are less interested in hookups and enjoy them less - Women are more interested in romantic and emotional connections and long-term relationships This is debatable. This is certainly truer for women in more traditional societies where they earned less than men, but as women climb up the corporate ladders you see them doing the same things in relationships as me…

For sure it's debatable but this is simply not true:

> Studies show that women have the same hard coded visceral, visual sexual physiological response as men

I don't know what studies you're looking at but you're misinformed. Women don't have the same physiological response to visual stimuli as men do.

I don't know what you mean by "doing the same things" but even if we assume that women are doing those things it doesn't follow from that they are the same as men at a sexual level.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#298

In a way, this mirrors how technological advances have created winner-take-all markets in other areas. Thanks to CDs (and then the internet), we can now all listen to the very best musicians in the world — where previously we just had to settle for whoever was the best in our town. Similarly, technology may be shifting the dating/intimacy market toward a winners-take-most equilibrium, which favors the most attractive…

The internet and dating apps surely play a part. It's also become more acceptable to be non-monogamous. I lived in the bay area for a while and hung out among queer circles in San Francisco. It seemed like nearly everyone was polyamorous and uninterested in being in a monogamous relationship. So much that I felt kind of obligated to try the poly thing myself for a while if I was going to date. I am a little worried a…

>It also seems to me that if a sizeable chunk of young men end up feeling undesirable, unwanted, and frustrated, the consequences won't be pretty, we all lose.

Those young men need to stop basing their self image on their own ego and sense of sexual entitlement.

What we're seeing here, in my humble and uneducated opinion, is the end of a period in societal history where women served the role of sexual currency in a market of male status. The social and religious pressures on women to validate men through sex and marriage are no longer relevant, and women are now seeking sexual fulfillment and relationships on their own terms, rather than those dictated to them by patriarchal society.

However, many men are still wedded, as it were, to the old model whereby their social status is accounted for by the number of women they have had sex with, and whether or not they are in a sexual relationship at the moment. They feel cheated because society has told them they are entitled to sex, and that there is something wrong with them if they don't get as much of it as they want.

What bothers me about this conversation is that disastrous, society-shattering consequences are always mentioned if women keep choosing not to have sex with more men, but no one seems willing to suggest that men need to change the way they view sex, relationships and themselves.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#299
post #209
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not the OP, but one important bit for the kid is to have stable set of rules. If there're multiple individuals with different parenting styles, kid gets confused and don't know who to look up to and what rules to follow. Don't they always adapt to different rule sets anyway? There is one set at home, one at school, one when they go visit the grand parents and one for whoever is babysitting. There is a lot of overla…

> Don't they always adapt to different rule sets anyway? ... Plus kids are more or less constantly probing for edge cases and try to push the boundaries naturally. Isn’t this observation kinda the point of the assertion kids need a stable set of rules at home going back to one source above others whether that is either parent or both as a pair. That’s what prevents them from endlessly pushing their boundaries out. Al…

> Isn’t this observation kinda the point of the assertion kids need a stable set of rules at home going back to one source above others whether that is either parent or both as a pair.

That assumes that their parents are the ultimate source of authority and in many cases they aren't. Parents don't typically enforce much of a dress code for instance, but schools will often require uniforms. Kids have to learn a different set of rules for different contexts.

> That’s what prevents them from endlessly pushing their boundaries out.

The only thing that seems to prevent it (or limit it anyway) is constant enforcement, but that's also usually limited to where they have authority. A rule not being enforce in one context is a rule that will probably be broken in that context. Once in a while breaking these rules might even make them appreciate them.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#300

Reading through the comments, there's a shared narrative that emerges: Tinder, etc. leads to a skewed distribution of access to sexual partners based on attractiveness, which leads to unattractive men not having as many partners, which leads to pick-your-favorite-bad-consequence. And there are a lot of men in this thread feeling worried and depressed about this. While it's certainly true that you get more matches on…

> an unattractive person even if you look fine physically. There is so much emphasis on physical appearance and status in this thread. If this is a common mindset among young men, it's no wonder they are lonely. Who wants to spend time with someone who reduces deeply human relationships to status and sex appeal? Attractiveness is a complicated and extremely individual thing. Appearance and status are much less import…

It's true that people would like to think that personality and emotional connection matter more than physical appearance. And I am glad that some of it is the case. Heck, I would like to believe that is the majority of cases.

But you can't deny the fact that people do make snap judgements on each other based on physical appearance alone. It's not even about dating. It's probably something wired to our brain.

Now if the above is true, why won't you care about your physical appearance? Why leave something that important on the table?

Post reply on HN