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Women: Learn to Program This Summer

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Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#291

Post by coolreader18 »

djsumdog wrote: post #274
ericsoderstrom wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work All the top comments I see are supportive and encouraging. Maybe there were some negative removed comments, but overall this thread doesn't seem to demonstrate gatekeeping and discrimination.

Enabled flagged/dead in your options. I think it's pretty valuable to see the way moderators are shaping the conversation.

Isn't it a common misconception that flagged/dead comments are because of moderators? Dead comments happen automatically if enough people flag it[0].

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173836

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#292

Post by DBYCZ »

zzzeek wrote: post #282
DBYCZ wrote: post #246

Anyone who argues that there should be "More women in tech" needs to go visit a medical college. Completely filled with super smart women interested in science. If STEM women found Coding as interesting as they did Medicine (which is arguably more competitive and prestigious), we wouldn't have any shortage of women writing code. There is nothing wrong with either way, just let people do what they like to do.

"Anyone who argues there should be "More women in medical school" needs to go visit a secretarial school. Completely filled with super smart women interested in typing and being secretaries." "If secretarial school women found being doctors as interesting as they did being Secretaries, we wouldn't have any shortage of women being doctors." same comment in 1950 when only 6% of doctors in the US were women (surprisingl…

I disagree with your comparison saying Medicine is to Tech, as Secretarial Work is to Medicine. The entry to tech is extremely forgiving and easy compared to Medicine. I believe Medicine is much more important to society on an individual level than tech ever will be. A more accurate comparison would have been Law.

My sister works in an O.R. performing heart surgeries, saving lives. I make websites. We both like what we do.

She thinks my job is dreadfully boring. I would hate the hours she works, and the finality (lack of version control/ctrl-z) that comes with working in the medical field would stress me out every day.

Different strokes for different folks.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#293

Post by ajross »

manfredo wrote: post #261
ajross wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the evidence that women aren't coding because they aren't "interested"? If you want to make that argument, don't you need to go and refute all the anecdotal evidence that women aren't entering tech careers because they don't feel welcome? I cite as evidence the fact that women in med schools have not, in fact, always been well represented and that the same kind of rhetoric about their "interests" was used to e…

The gender equality paradox is one strong example. Contrary to the narrative that women don't go into tech because of restrictive gender roles, the countries with the greatest amounts of gender equality, the highest male child rearing participation, the most generous parental leave, the smallest wage gap, etc. actually have the lowest rates of women in tech. By comparison the countries that have the most restrictive…

Why is that "tech" and not just "time"?

Tech careers have only been spoken of as such for about a quarter century. Where were scandanavian female doctors as far as representation in the 1970s?

I mean, you're still sort of sidestepping the issue, but you brought up the analogy: what is it about tech that is fundamentally more gender-selective than medicine?

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#294

Post by austincheney »

DBYCZ wrote: post #246

Anyone who argues that there should be "More women in tech" needs to go visit a medical college. Completely filled with super smart women interested in science. If STEM women found Coding as interesting as they did Medicine (which is arguably more competitive and prestigious), we wouldn't have any shortage of women writing code. There is nothing wrong with either way, just let people do what they like to do.

> Anyone who argues that there should be "More women in tech"

I don't think there is any problem (shortage) of women in tech, but this is a substantial deficit of women in startup tech. There could be many reasons for this, but I suspect this is due to the personalities needed at an early stage startup and some degree of narcissism or self-interest that many developers (particularly women developers) find less appealing.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#295

Post by alexashka »

dang wrote: post #193
alexashka wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? The average IQ is 100. Computer science is not a 100 IQ field. Science is not a 100 IQ endeavour. Coding at 100 IQ level will be automated away very soon the same way anyone can have a facebook account without knowing HTML.

Who (else) said anything about IQ? Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ? They include: "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." Also, please stop posting flamebait, especially ideological flamebait, to HN. It fuels flamewars, which destroy what we want to preserve here: thoughtful conversation and inte…

Coding was compared to literacy here. Literacy is taught in schools because people of average IQ (100) are capable of literacy and find it helpful in their everyday lives.

Literacy is one of the few things taught in schools that actually has any utility in people's everyday lives.

Coding is nothing like literacy. It is more like chemistry, physics or Shakespeare - something the vast majority don't care about and will quickly forget. If you have any doubt - poll the population on Newton's three laws of motion and why they matter.

Regarding idealogical flamebait - I don't even know what that is - I'm simply expressing my opinion, that the above has hopefully clarified. If you find my stance on the school system offensive, rest assured I'll no longer reply on the matter in this thread, seeing how quick others are to judge others in a negative light.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#296

Post by manfredo »

ajross wrote: post #293
manfredo wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gender equality paradox is one strong example. Contrary to the narrative that women don't go into tech because of restrictive gender roles, the countries with the greatest amounts of gender equality, the highest male child rearing participation, the most generous parental leave, the smallest wage gap, etc. actually have the lowest rates of women in tech. By comparison the countries that have the most restrictive…

Why is that "tech" and not just "time"? Tech careers have only been spoken of as such for about a quarter century. Where were scandanavian female doctors as far as representation in the 1970s? I mean, you're still sort of sidestepping the issue, but you brought up the analogy: what is it about tech that is fundamentally more gender-selective than medicine?

I think you're missing the core point. It's not that industries are selective of gender. It's that people are selective of the industry they work in, and on average women select things other than tech. The agency is on the part of people.

So the less restrictions there are on gender roles, the more agency people have to select fields based on their own preferences.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#297

Post by krastanov »

ajross wrote: post #251
DBYCZ wrote: post #246

Anyone who argues that there should be "More women in tech" needs to go visit a medical college. Completely filled with super smart women interested in science. If STEM women found Coding as interesting as they did Medicine (which is arguably more competitive and prestigious), we wouldn't have any shortage of women writing code. There is nothing wrong with either way, just let people do what they like to do.

What's the evidence that women aren't coding because they aren't "interested"? If you want to make that argument, don't you need to go and refute all the anecdotal evidence that women aren't entering tech careers because they don't feel welcome? I cite as evidence the fact that women in med schools have not, in fact, always been well represented and that the same kind of rhetoric about their "interests" was used to e…

A lot of sibling comments stick to the "gender equality paradox" while forgetting all the other research on the topic (this is already a heavy selection bias). Yes, women in Scandinavia and women is Bangladesh, given the chance to pursue a career in STEM, might make choices that superficially support the notion that women self-select out of tech. But this line of reasoning forgets to compare what other choices/opportunities the women in those two countries have and similarly does not compare this to the background rates for these choices in the population at large. It is rife with interesting statistical fallacies that are worthwhile to discuss.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#298

Post by throwawayvv »

llama052 wrote: post #267
manfredo wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it fair to claim equal opportunity when you give more opportunities to other people? Googles careers page advertises that they're both in equal opportunity employer and an affirmative action employer: > Google is proud to be an equal opportunity workplace and is an affirmative action employer. https://careers.google.com/teams/?&src=Online/House%20Ads/BK... So I guess the answer is yes.

That's so strange to me, how do you define equal opportunity when you directly affect that opportunity based on third party factors out of someones control.

Newspeak!

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#299

Post by dang »

djsumdog wrote: post #274
ericsoderstrom wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work All the top comments I see are supportive and encouraging. Maybe there were some negative removed comments, but overall this thread doesn't seem to demonstrate gatekeeping and discrimination.

Enabled flagged/dead in your options. I think it's pretty valuable to see the way moderators are shaping the conversation.

Moderators aren't doing that, other than by having banned accounts in the past, which makes future comments [dead]. Users are doing the rest.

I think we might have banned a couple of accounts in this thread, but there would be a comment there clearly saying so.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#300

Post by krastanov »

camelNotation wrote: post #271
ajross wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the evidence that women aren't coding because they aren't "interested"? If you want to make that argument, don't you need to go and refute all the anecdotal evidence that women aren't entering tech careers because they don't feel welcome? I cite as evidence the fact that women in med schools have not, in fact, always been well represented and that the same kind of rhetoric about their "interests" was used to e…

It blows my mind that so many people are still unaware of the gender equality paradox. People constantly bring this up, constantly ask that same question, constantly get the same response. Women self-select into certain fields at higher rates than others, men do the exact same thing. Can we move on now? There is no problem to solve.

Is it not important to understand where these choices come from? Not because we have to enforce any particular distribution of genders, rather because it is useful to understand any differences that exist and whether they are truly personal choices.
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