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Java 12

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Re: Java 12

#291

Post by CaptainJustin »

stefan_ wrote: post #84
_bxg1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages for game development. This could open up the JVM for games, which could have some exciting implications.

Their lower end target is 10 ms. In a game, 16 ms is your entire time budget.

A few of us built a webgl game backend in Java. It was fun but optimizing to make everything always work within 16ms was hard. In our case it was especially complicated because we shared state over websockets back to the clients.

Re: Java 12

#292

Post by freeone3000 »

java-man wrote: post #272
vlaaad wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Decoupling benefits JavaFX so it can have release cycles on their own pace.

Decoupling might have benefitted JavaFX, but it did not benefit me who develops professional desktop applications for a living, and it did not benefit my users. If they wanted to decouple, they first should have created a cross-platform jpackager-like tool that generates native executables for major platforms. I remember JavaFX was launched with great fanfare as a modern replacement, which it certainly might have bee…

This tool is called jlink. https://docs.oracle.com/javase/9/tools/jlink.htm

Re: Java 12

#293

Post by Scea91 »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #281
Justsignedup wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just had this conversation with a co-worker today. java is a stable api but it also doesn't evolve. The tradeoff is you get a program guaranteed to work no matter the upgrade vs being able to build better toolage. React changes every year or 2. It is exhausting. But you get way better patterns and some things that drastically improve productivity.

I've been working professionally in Java for almost 20 years. I can't remember the last time I saw someone use features introduced after 1.6. The time API in 1.8 was nice. I've never seen anyone use lambdas in production code. I'm sure people do use newer stuff, but I think it's the minority. So in practice it's even more stable than it is in the headlines.

Strange, our production code is full of streams and lambdas. It probably depends on the type of product.

Re: Java 12

#294

Post by BinaryIdiot »

gigatexal wrote: post #283
MarkMc wrote: post #214

I'm so glad I was taught Java at Macquarie University back in 1998. For the past 20 years I've had a career built on a solid API that doesn't change every 2 years like some flavour-of-the-month Javascript framework. Even on the client where Java has lost to Javascript, I'm finding it more enjoyable to add features to my 15-year-old SWT app [0] rather than dealing with the multiple layers of abstractions that is Javas…

Biggest barrier to entry for me is the build dependency system Maven. And I never understood Ant. I did like the language when I played around with Java 8. Streams are amazing.

Maven is an incredible system. It can do so much and yet, even though I've setup countless apps and services, I can never use it without looking literally everything up.

Maven and spring are the worst parts, for me, when dealing with Java. I don't mind the language at all.

Re: Java 12

#295

Post by euyyn »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #240
Justsignedup wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just had this conversation with a co-worker today. java is a stable api but it also doesn't evolve. The tradeoff is you get a program guaranteed to work no matter the upgrade vs being able to build better toolage. React changes every year or 2. It is exhausting. But you get way better patterns and some things that drastically improve productivity.

Java gives you a flexible object oriented language and an incredible set of libraries. It's got an archiver for artifact and dependency management. It now has lambdas and has FRP style stream programming. I'd say it's kept up pretty well with modern fashion, while it's been doing other things far longer than newer, more popular languages. Take Swift, now my daily driver (which I love so much compared to ObjC, which I…

Kotlin though. Everything you said, but a joy to write instead of a chore.

Re: Java 12

#296

Post by euyyn »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #281
Justsignedup wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just had this conversation with a co-worker today. java is a stable api but it also doesn't evolve. The tradeoff is you get a program guaranteed to work no matter the upgrade vs being able to build better toolage. React changes every year or 2. It is exhausting. But you get way better patterns and some things that drastically improve productivity.

I've been working professionally in Java for almost 20 years. I can't remember the last time I saw someone use features introduced after 1.6. The time API in 1.8 was nice. I've never seen anyone use lambdas in production code. I'm sure people do use newer stuff, but I think it's the minority. So in practice it's even more stable than it is in the headlines.

Chromium (and so Chrome too) uses lambdas in its Java parts.

Re: Java 12

#297

Post by antpls »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #234
tambourine_man wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages There is such a thing as reference counting :)

Trivial reference-counting can lead to memory leaks when you have an object graph that’s disjoint from an RC root object. Non-trivial reference counting starts to look like mark-and-sweep GC. And even then, when a ref count drops to zero, the runtime cost of destruction and deallocation of particular objects can be expensive. Stop-the-world GC is bad, but “make a blocking call because you can’t use async APIs in dest…

From my understanding of Rust, you will still pay the runtime cost of destruction and deallocation of objects with the object lifetime system ? It's like reference counting, but precomputed by the compiler. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: Java 12

#298

Post by jaabe »

Justsignedup wrote: post #218
MarkMc wrote: post #214

I'm so glad I was taught Java at Macquarie University back in 1998. For the past 20 years I've had a career built on a solid API that doesn't change every 2 years like some flavour-of-the-month Javascript framework. Even on the client where Java has lost to Javascript, I'm finding it more enjoyable to add features to my 15-year-old SWT app [0] rather than dealing with the multiple layers of abstractions that is Javas…

just had this conversation with a co-worker today. java is a stable api but it also doesn't evolve. The tradeoff is you get a program guaranteed to work no matter the upgrade vs being able to build better toolage. React changes every year or 2. It is exhausting. But you get way better patterns and some things that drastically improve productivity.

If you develop, not if you maintain. This is a major reason we stay away from JS frameworks after burning the hands on implementing an AngularJS that was obsolete a year later.

That and a few page reloads never killed anyone.

Re: Java 12

#299

Post by qw »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #281
Justsignedup wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just had this conversation with a co-worker today. java is a stable api but it also doesn't evolve. The tradeoff is you get a program guaranteed to work no matter the upgrade vs being able to build better toolage. React changes every year or 2. It is exhausting. But you get way better patterns and some things that drastically improve productivity.

I've been working professionally in Java for almost 20 years. I can't remember the last time I saw someone use features introduced after 1.6. The time API in 1.8 was nice. I've never seen anyone use lambdas in production code. I'm sure people do use newer stuff, but I think it's the minority. So in practice it's even more stable than it is in the headlines.

I work for a large company and the code base is full of streams and lambdas. Streams are almost used too much and could be replaced with a simple for-loop.

Re: Java 12

#300

Post by james_s_tayler »

jm4 wrote: post #94
ilovecaching wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java on the web is a reference to applets running in the browser. Yes, Oracle, the company that sues people for breathing the same air owning Java is an issue. Maybe I am uninformed, but you haven't made a good case that there's any truth to that.

Do you know anything about Java? I'm not trying to be insulting. Java has its problems, but your points are so far off the mark. Applets haven't been a thing for 20 years and I'm not sure they were a thing then either. Do you know people make web apps in Java and there's a ton of quality open source libraries out there?

Worked on a project to replace all Applets in a large enterprise product just a couple of years ago.

There is a lot of software running in this world. Some of it is very long lived.

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