Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#291

Post by dTal » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

ariwilson wrote: post #271

o10449366 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are two realistic facts: 1. Google would be absolutely fine if they do not expand into China. They would not collapse or lose their competitive edge if they refrained from doing so. You've worked at Google for over a decade so you should know this is true. 2. Google's censored search engine would absolutely facilitate Xi Jinping ability to censor the Chinese people and would set a dangerous precedent for other g…

I don't really appreciate the diving into my background, so thanks for that. 1. Will Google really be fine? China is the up and coming superpower of the century. How many large corporations from Britain in the late 1800s / early 1900s are still large that didn't invest in the US? 2. Doesn't Xi Jinping already have this ability to an even greater degree with Baidu/other Chinese tech companies? I do worry about the pre…

>I don't really appreciate the diving into my background, so thanks for that.

Are you ashamed of it? There's more than a little irony in this complaint, given that scraping and republishing publicly available information is Google's core product - indeed the odds are high that OP literally used Google to do this.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#292

Post by Wowfunhappy » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

tylerl wrote: post #279

JohnFen wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the opt out process is ever-so-slightly easier. Oh? How do I opt out of Google's spying? I already don't have an account or use their services, but they still collect data on me from a wide variety of sources, both online and not. As far as I can tell, there is literally no way to get them to stop it. I don't think Google has much of a high road here.

While your opinion is popular, especially among privacy enthusiasts, it's also inconsistent with reality. Google isn't spying on you. They don't give a damn who you are. This may come as a blow, but your browsing history is not valuable in and if itself. Your identity and behavior is only valuable to Google for the purpose of making you happy with their services. It's only desirable to Google to the extent that it re…

> [Your data is] only desirable to Google to the extent that it represents an ongoing voluntary relationship between you and them. Otherwise its value goes negative.

Ad targeting?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#293

Post by ariwilson » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #291

ariwilson wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really appreciate the diving into my background, so thanks for that. 1. Will Google really be fine? China is the up and coming superpower of the century. How many large corporations from Britain in the late 1800s / early 1900s are still large that didn't invest in the US? 2. Doesn't Xi Jinping already have this ability to an even greater degree with Baidu/other Chinese tech companies? I do worry about the pre…

>I don't really appreciate the diving into my background, so thanks for that. Are you ashamed of it? There's more than a little irony in this complaint, given that scraping and republishing publicly available information is Google's core product - indeed the odds are high that OP literally used Google to do this.

I appreciate the merits of having an argument based on the points raised, not the backgrounds of the participants. Especially when one of them is hiding behind an anonymous string of characters.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#294

Post by BlackFly » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #286

CharlesColeman wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But by forcing our values onto SE Asian cultures, we are assuming that they cannot come up with "better" answers, and assuming that our way is the only way. Maybe there's an alternative to western society that they'll discover and share with us if we just let them do it their way? Maybe our western society is just not a good fit for their culture? There's a lot of "forcing [of] values" going on in many SE Asian cul…

I get that. But a lot of the time the drive to enforce Western values does way more harm than good. The obvious example is the Vietnam war (and the US treatment of Cambodia that lead directly to the horrors of the Khmer Rouge). But less obviously, championing a "reformist" in Myanmar lead to a complete mess (and arguably genocide). Maybe if we started with the point of view that SE Asians have the right to determine…

I try to avoid calling them "Western" values to disentangle things which are empirical from things which are less so.

For instance, "Western" medicine is undeniably better than "traditional X" medicine. Because what people actually mean by "Western" medicine is modern medicine leaving behind all the historical western folk remedies that didn't work and keeping the folk remedies that worked. A lot of modern medicine comes from countries which would not be considered Western. You can of course split hairs in this discussion as well.

Censorship? Protectionism? These are less obvious concerns. That someone does not see the tragedy in holding a wife accountable for the democratic leanings and agitations of the husband and seeks to punish the husband by imposing punishments on the wife is so obviously unjust to me. The possibility that maybe society can be better when punishments are imposed in this way (the empirical question that would justify it under a utilitarian analysis) is just unconvincing to me (because I doubt it is true, I devalue utilitarian justice over individual justice and I don't even think the husband committed a crime). I could be wrong, though.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#295

Post by zachguo » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

Dragonfly will fail anyway even if it enters China. Google won't be allowed to do any social, payment or map related business. By offering a search product alone, there's no way Dragonfly can compete with existing eco-system, at best, it can only achieve a market share as much as DuckDuckGo obtained in US. And internet landscape in China is way more mobile-centric, and iterates faster than US already. Not sure how a crippled Google can fit in. It makes more sense for Google to focus more on GCP in China. No need to deal with all those political stuff.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#296

Post by omouse » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

robbrit wrote: post #247

omouse wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> further strengthening management's choices I think people are forgetting that each of those Google (former) employees have shares and are also shareholders and shareholders will start to get pissed when management is screwing up and will call for a new CEO or new execs or a new board to be put into place that will get Google back on track: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/technology/tech-workers-c... > I doubt th…

> each of those Google (former) employees have shares They have class C shares, which do not have any voting rights. Shareholders without voting rights have absolutely no power to influence policy. > If they lose more employees it can be argued that they're ignoring their fiduciary duty to the shareholders by tarnishing the brand of Google which makes hiring more difficult which leads to less profits. You're making a…

> They have class C shares, which do not have any voting rights. Shareholders without voting rights have absolutely no power to influence policy.

You're right, they're using class C for compensation: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/052215/goog-or...

But that doesn't prevent employees from buying up class A voting shares, though:

> A shares receive one vote, C shares receive no votes, and B shares receive 10 votes

There's more investors and employees than there are the founders so perhaps it's possible for them to get enough A shares to outvote the super-vote B shares? Unlikely, but possible...

Thanks for offering your opinion, I agree with your thoughts.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#297

Post by ABCLAW » Wed, Mar 06, 2019, 8:08 PM UTC

cma wrote: post #84

o10449366 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are two realistic facts: 1. Google would be absolutely fine if they do not expand into China. They would not collapse or lose their competitive edge if they refrained from doing so. You've worked at Google for over a decade so you should know this is true. 2. Google's censored search engine would absolutely facilitate Xi Jinping ability to censor the Chinese people and would set a dangerous precedent for other g…

> They would not collapse or lose their competitive edge if they refrained from doing so. Alphabet is a Deleware corporation, where executives that leave money on the table for moral reasons have to at least claim that it was their business judgment that the action would ultimately increase profits for shareholder value in the long term. There are many arguments those executives could make, such as that employees cou…

>Alphabet is a Deleware corporation, where executives that leave money on the table for moral reasons have to at least claim that it was their business judgment that the action would ultimately increase profits for shareholder value in the long term.

Naw. In order for the directors to be stopped by 'leaving money on the table' someone would need to bring a claim against them. One which they would almost certainly lose.

And then even if someone did, the executives wouldn't even need to make the claim that the actions ultimately increased profits at all, because the courts just toss them a strong presumption for free.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_judgment_rule

You're repeating a lie. Stop it.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#298

Post by hrdwdmrbl » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 7:11 AM UTC

chopin wrote: post #236

hrdwdmrbl wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should note that I myself am not Chinese either, but I do live there and its not pleasant having to use Bing, etc.

Out of curiosity: Does Startpage work there?

nope, just tried it

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#299

Post by hrdwdmrbl » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 7:16 AM UTC

ppseafield wrote: post #261

hrdwdmrbl wrote: post #193

Love it when Americans make decisions for Chinese people and presume to know what they'd want. Maybe try asking them what they want. Or even just think about what you'd want if you lived in China. Living in China, you know your search engine will be censored. But still, wouldn't you want the best censored search engine that you can get?

> Love it when Americans make decisions for Chinese people and presume to know what they'd want. This is a discussion about Google (an American company) employees talking about one of Google's projects (as directed by the American company's leadership), but it happens to be about a product for another country. > Living in China, you know your search engine will be censored. But still, wouldn't you want the best censo…

Oh certainly I think they're like an uncensored internet but unfortunately Google is not going to cause that to happen. Even with an uncensored Google you still wouldn't be able to access the links. It should also be said that while many Chinese do have VPN they are often pretty bad (SLOW!) and often break. They are also only used by more sophisticated users or enthusiastic users. Most people are too lazy to bother, cost is a consideration or they are not technical enough. I do give shout-out to Google for Outline VPN though. That is them actually doing something that is changing the game

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#300

Post by chrischen » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 7:51 AM UTC

kkarakk wrote: post #280

chrischen wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but a Westerner would hardly be the objective judger of such gulags/guantanamo bays of China. That being said if too many people were being sent to prison in China, unjustly, they'd have another revolution. The fact is that even if evidence was revealed they had absolutely 0 gulags, or whatever it is you're claiming, it would not do much to silence anti-China sentiment. The presence of the gulags are not falsifia…

is there a difference in human suffering based on color of skin/cultural background?

In theory, no, but in practice, there's a question to the underlying motivation and ulterior motives if one is fighting for another's rights more than that other person is.

For example, to an American the invasion of Iraq may be officially an Operation for Iraqi Liberation, but to an Iraqi it may seem like control of OIL was the motivation. From a third party perspective you have to assume an American is motivated in self-interest, so if they seem more interested in the "liberation" of another group more than that group is itself, your duty is to question that motivation. The primary purpose of the US government is to serve American interests, so any reasons it gives of altruistic or justice-serving intent can be immediately thrown in the trash. I'm saying this as a tax-paying American citizen by the way.