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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#291

Post by KozmoNau7 »

bilbo0s wrote: post #108
orthecreedence wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personification makes sense to me, at least in regards to Patreon. But then you get to Youtube...a stroll through the comment section of any video makes you realize you're in the digital version of Mos Eisley. There is no brand to protect, yet they wave their censorship wand quite often, including just this last week ( https://www.businessinsider.com/r-youtube-under-pressure-for... ). It seems a lot of these videos w…

Not really worrying. Just different individuals and organizations taking different positions on different subjects. Most importantly, all of it happening on private property. I have an unpopular opinion. I believe people should be able to fly nazi and confederate flags on their private property. (Even if their private property overlooks yours.) I believe football players should be able to kneel during the national an…

>"I believe people should be able to fly nazi and confederate flags on their private property."

The people doing this are advocating for violent ideologies, that have as their foundation extreme racism, including the oppression of minorities and violence against them, literally to the level of genocide.

They don't stop at just putting up flags. They organize, march and perpetrate violent attacks. They invade subcultures and infiltrate their ideologies into them. They plan for the creation of a fascist white ethnostate. None of this is exaggeration on my part.

How do you propose we stop this tide of hate-fueled ideology? The "marketplace of ideas" approach does not work, they simply use the exposure to further spread their viewpoints, feeding on the controversy.

How can we fight these ideologies, if not by exposing them and deplatforming them, and constantly keeping them on the back foot?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#293

Post by anu_gupta »

dkersten wrote: post #272
zamalek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

Theres a fine line between “being allowed to throw a loud ranting racist out of a pub” because the pub is your business and you should be allowed to choose who to do business with and you don’t like racists... and throwing out a person of a different race because it’s your business and you should be allowed to choose who to do business with and don’t like that race... That is, we want businesses to have the right to…

The line isn't very fine.

There's a clear difference between traits that you were BORN with, and things that you CHOOSE to say.

To put it more simply for you – it's difficult for someone to change their skin colour. It's not really that difficult for them to not say racist things in a pub.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#294

Post by vowelless »

ianleeclark wrote: post #265
vowelless wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think he was naive in saying what he said and neither do I think he was being charitable to blacks or to whites for that matter. Maybe the simplest thing is to let profit motivated corporations do whatever it takes to increase their revenues, and leave the moralities out of the door. If they want to deny service to people because of their speech in the pursuit of growing their business, why not?

> I don’t think he was naive in saying what he said and neither do I think he was being charitable to blacks or to whites for that matter. No, you're being too naive when you're so charitable to assume that a Brit, of his background and who does what he does for a living, isn't aware of the stigma of the n-word.

Ah! My bad. I didn’t think you would actually be attacking me personally. I guess that shows how naive I actually am :). Thanks for sharing your deeply considered opinion about me. I clearly don’t have the rich life experiences that you have, especially about this topic.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#295

Post by nine_k »

dkersten wrote: post #272
zamalek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

Theres a fine line between “being allowed to throw a loud ranting racist out of a pub” because the pub is your business and you should be allowed to choose who to do business with and you don’t like racists... and throwing out a person of a different race because it’s your business and you should be allowed to choose who to do business with and don’t like that race... That is, we want businesses to have the right to…

Yes, a society* enforces certain choices, but not every choice. "Everything what is not expressly forbidden is allowed" still applies.

* Yes, "society" here works through state. But without a reasonably wide consensus in the society, a norm cannot be effectively imposed: most people would break it and be sure that everyone around won't mind. (Manufacturing such a consent, if it's not yet there, is another business.)

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#296

Post by microcolonel »

darkpuma wrote: post #224
microcolonel wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's speaking from their perspective, clearly.

I think that's plausible but ambiguous.

It's about as ambiguous as whether you are a secret racist. This guy is arguing directly against out-and-out unabashed racists in the conversation. How much more anti-racist does one have to be in order to make it not "ambiguous" in your eyes?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#297

Post by beat »

remarkEon wrote: post #259
reaperducer wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a dozen or so major companies or orgs can work together to shut you out of having nearly any reach at all. Yep. And it's happened in the past. That's why so many tinfoil hat types ended up on shortwave radio, or sticking flyers to lampposts. Desperate people desperately trying to get a message out, with no means to do so.

But the line cannot become "tinfoil hat types" because that is a completely undefinable measure. People who correctly predicted the 2008 financial crisis were considered "tinfoil hat types". Should they have been dropped off these platforms because they sounded crazy at the time?

Surely you see the difference between the "sounds crazy" of predicting a market collapse, and the "sounds crazy" of saying we should deport or execute all Muslims (as a for example).

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#298

Post by village-idiot »

> “These recent expulsions seem more readily explained by political bias”

This reasoning seems weak. It might me political bias, but it might also be about hate speech. In order to claim this is purely about politics, one would need to show that hate speech is evenly distributed among political ideologies while unevenly punished. In this climate, that's not a bet I would take.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#299

Post by Jare »

"[...] all contentious speech or behavior will put the speaker or actor at risk of serious financial and social sanctions, and strip them of all defense,”

Thing is, a lot of self-described "contentious" speech is putting other people at risk of serious financial, social, mental and physical harm.

I believe in free speech and I believe that you can't successfully fight ideas by burying them, but I am also aware that I can afford such beliefs because I am largely free of said risks thanks to my social / biological / demographic circumstances.

That said, time and time again I find that most of the people who end up in this kind of complaints are just agitators, racists and assholes who have found in the internet a vehicle to amplify their hateful voices. Labeling it as "hate speech" may be subjective, but so is not labeling it as such. I have no doubt in my mind that it's what they practice.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#300

Post by astura »

cc81 wrote: post #191
zamalek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

I don't think anyone is saying that there should be a law that forces Patreon to allow everyone on their platform. More a lamenting that the consequences of large platforms acting like this might be bigger than people think. Reminds me a little of the whole Parental Advisory thing with rock music or Spotify's decisions around violent artists. How outraged should we be that artists that say very questionable things ar…

For decades Walmart, the largest retailer in the world, exclusively sold censored music albums, yet nobody rioted over that, we all just knew not to buy our CDs there. I don't understand why people all the sudden believe they have a God given right to spew their garbage all over every platform in existence.... that's something very new.

EDIT: Source: https://corporate.walmart.com/_news_/news-archive/2008/04/29...

>MUSIC: Wal-Mart does not carry music that has the “parental advisory” label which warns parents about explicit lyrics. We carry some "edited" versions of music that have been provided by the artist or the music label. Wal-Mart does not edit music. Our role is simply to provide music selections that we believe our customers want to buy.

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