Companies used to do this. You might join working the helpdesk or as a manual tester, then work your way up. But now those junior, entry level jobs have been outsourced and offshored.
Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?
291–300 of 495 posts
Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?
#292> when it would take days or a couple weeks to learn XYZ framework/library/whatever to the level of competence that is required for the position. Here is their thought process: If you believe that is the case, then why not spend a couple weeks learning XYZ, so that the next time you need XYZ you can say you know it? Either it's not actually that simple, which means that it would take a long time for you to ramp up, o…
A very experienced programmer can learn a new framework in 2 weeks and start being productive - even if not not as productive as he/she will become in 1 year. But a junior dev won't become an experienced dev with 2 weeks of study, the productivity will still be that of a junior. Study helps a lot, but it can't replace real world experience.
Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?
#293Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't necessarily mean you'll be happier, however. Most construction jobs are very hard on the body.
I very frequently consider getting any job that involves being outside and doing physical work over sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day. I like programming, but I hate not being outside for vast majority of the day and what this lifestyle is doing to my body.
Do you really believe that? Being outside and getting exercise is really nice, but using your brain is so much nicer. Would you really give up a job that is intellectually stimulating for one that uses you mostly for your mechanical abilities?
Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?
#294Earlier quoted context omitted.
I very frequently consider getting any job that involves being outside and doing physical work over sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day. I like programming, but I hate not being outside for vast majority of the day and what this lifestyle is doing to my body.
Do you really believe that? Being outside and getting exercise is really nice, but using your brain is so much nicer. Would you really give up a job that is intellectually stimulating for one that uses you mostly for your mechanical abilities?
Yes. I have worked manual jobs in the past(repairing bicycles, working at a warehouse and as a driver and for a while at a semi-construction job that involved being outside a lot) and I feel like overall I was more consistently happy. I would come home and do coding in my own time to satisfy the intellectual needs.
Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?
#295I have seen people being put on a project not in their field and start with a lot of enthusiasm. FFWD 1 year and they don't particularly have talent for their new job, they feel they took a wrong career turn, they just aren't progressing (I also saw the opposite btw). It is difficult to judge this in advance and thus a risk. Now I feel it can still be done but only with people who are honest to you (project lead) and themselves by being willing to admit they either need more training or really should be doing something else. But this ability to reflect is also something that often comes with age/experience. I think I work at a company where it is certainly appreciated when you try to develop new skills and failing or losing interest is not a big problem but as a project leader it can be frustrating to think: "Hmm, well that was an FTE I'll never get back." Especially when you see the person really not enjoying themselves. Of course, this is a learning curve for the project leader as well and it turns you more into a coach from time to time. Which is fun tbh.
Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?
#296I worked for a company that did this very successfully for a long time - they paid very high salaries and had lots of nice perks so that people weren't tempted to jump ship for financial reasons. However, as tech salaries have increased the last few years, they have hit the problem of people jumping ship after a couple of years, presumably because they can now earn more as developers in the finance sector or with Google, Facebook etc, though I expect something more subtle might also be going on as the company has grown in size.
Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't necessarily mean you'll be happier, however. Most construction jobs are very hard on the body.
I very frequently consider getting any job that involves being outside and doing physical work over sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day. I like programming, but I hate not being outside for vast majority of the day and what this lifestyle is doing to my body.
Ride a bike to work. If you live too close then take a more interesting path to work that gives you some proper fitness every day.
Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?
#298I'm an Engineering Manager at Cloudflare, and we hire juniors. But... this was not a thing we always did. For a long while the company was much smaller and we had a limited number of roles open and so we focused on fewer hands that could get more done as each team might only be a couple of people (for example the engineers behind Cloudflare DNS could be counted on a single hand) meaning we hired mostly senior whilst…
Glad to hear this from Cloudflare
> encourages us to hire the most curious, smart, and kind individuals This is important. Having hired developers with a range of experiences I've found that it's often the more junior developers who push new ideas, create discussion and raise the team morale IF you hire those juniors who are most enthusiastic and hungry for growth. It's similar for hiring senior roles but seems even more important when hiring juniors.
Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not just the salary. It's often about personal growth and wanderlust. Let me try an odd comparison: after graduating, would you choose to live with your parents if they fed you even more and offered you an even bigger room with more furniture ?
Careful about using that analogy. While the Western world would most likely choose to leave, the Eastern world would more likely do the opposite.
It isn’t even true for the Western world. More like Northwestern Europe and those polities founded by people from those countries. Italy has a high rate of adult unmarried children living at home and it’s definitely part of the West.
Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?
#300While you might say "I don't know React, but will start learning it as soon as I come into work," someone else is saying "React is so cool! Yeah, I haven't done much with it, but I was playing around with it the other week and I made a little todo app. My code was so much cleaner than doing it the old way." Which person gets hired? Companies are willing to do on-the-job training, as long as the person appears enthusi…
The second will get hired, but may be a much worse employee. Also tech stacks are exploding, so learning everything is not possible any longer.
> The second will get hired, but may be a much worse employee.
Why would they be worse than the first candidate in this example, if they've actually tried out React and the first has not?