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NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

theguardian.com

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Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#291

Post by zanny »

jimnotgym wrote: post #247
zanny wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public transit shouldn't be expensive. It shouldn't pretty much ever run outside the red. The whole point of it is to incentivize its use and promote efficient means of travel. The only reason to charge at all is to disincentivize unnecessary consumption of it. If you are doing city planning you want as many people on the Subway as you can get. It enables greater density at ground level and is much cheaper to maintai…

But someone has to pay? Broadly speaking either 1) The businesses pay to get their human resources to work 2) The travellers pay or 3) Central taxation pays So who should pay in New York?

Obviously taxes. Those who benefit most from public transit are those least able to afford it, but making the cost baked in to the wealth of the people can driven even someone with a personal driver to maybe fathom using the tube instead once in a while if its borderline free.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#292

Post by acjohnson55 »

zjaffee wrote: post #220
InitialLastName wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is really that the MTA is funded and controlled by the State of New York, while it predominantly serves the City of New York. Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries; they let him get out from under the thumb of the state.

People keep saying that the street car will be worthless, but I simply don't buy it. It connects all of the fastest growing neighborhoods in the city, where there have been increasing large amounts of effort around economic development within the areas that these places connect, where it will massively increase the value and in turn ability to build real estate along the waterfront, as one of the key determiners of l…

To me, the problem is poor connectivity to the rest of the train network.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#293

Post by cc439 »

pgodzin wrote: post #203
huehehue wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point. How about a drain/pump system to prevent stations from flooding every time it rains? Or cleaning the tracks more frequently to reduce fires? Or fixing the broken intercoms in the cars, so I can at least be warned about surprise service modifications?

To do more cleaning you need more station closures and delays

How hard is it to build a vacuum/sweeper car and run half a dozen of them during the slowest times at night?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#294

Post by NeedMoreTea »

yholio wrote: post #290
martinald wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Transport for London is close, if not past, covering operational (and some, but not all, very significant capital) expenditure from fares, property and advertising revenue. MTR in Hong Kong also is profitable, as I believe many Japanese networks are. Being run entirely from fares means you are not at the whim of politicians for subsidies and grants that can change overnight with an election, which makes it very…

I think the conclusion from this sub-thread is that the London subway is insanely expensive compared to most of the rest of the world. There might be local reasons that afford it such price gouging power, like the lack of any reasonable transport alternative and the nature of London's road infrastructure, congestion and parking fees etc. A fee increase to that level in other cities might have the opposite effect of r…

London is priced as it is because from this year or next, I forget which, it has no government money. All running costs must come from fares and advertising. Prices have changed accordingly.

Unlike roads which are entirely funded by government. So a comparison is always going to make "public transport" (ironic considering it's the transport not receiving public funds) look more expensive.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#295

Post by afterburner »

culturestate wrote: post #240
martinald wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC subway fares are insanely cheap compared to the rest of the (developed) world. $2.75 single for any distance is incredibly low. In London that same fare in rush hour would be anywhere between $4 and $15+ depending on the length of the journey (and NYC has much higher GDP per capita than London, plus the £ is on its arse at the moment). Even Berlin is marginally more expensive, in a much smaller & less economicall…

> NYC subway fares are insanely cheap compared to the rest of the (developed) world. $2.75 single for any distance is incredibly low. Europe isn't the only "developed world," mate. My morning commute in Hong Kong (which is roughly the same distance as Brooklyn to the LES or, say, King's Cross to Paddington) costs around $0.50. I can go all the way to mainland China for ~$3.00. $2.75 is roughly the maximum fare in Tok…

Calm down, he didn't say it was the absolute cheapest, just that it was cheap.

As a side note, there sure are a lot of people in China that get prickly about the definition of "developed".

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#296

Post by sjg007 »

tikhonj wrote: post #195
DoubleGlazing wrote: post #151

The problem with urban transport systems is that no one sees them for what they really are... an expensive thing that drives the economy. There seems to be an obsession in the west with making public transport pay for itself, but the reality is that a few billion invested in better public transport results in a lot more billions being made elsewhere. We need to get away from this idea that public transport systems ne…

It's also interesting how people don't see public roads in the same way—people don't expect roads to cover their own expenses directly, expect free parking as a human right and bridle at toll roads or gasoline taxes. People need to see public transport as "roads that don't need cars".

Well businesses and truckers/lorries should pay more to use the roads. They cause the most damage.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#297

Post by sjg007 »

neltnerb wrote: post #283
gameswithgo wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is my potatoes in the trucks. I can pay the road tax, or more for potato. doesn't matter.

Or the externalities are properly priced and the vast majority of the miles of transport are done by train, which would be cheaper if trucks had to pay for the road maintenance they cause. And cause less pollution (both in ton-miles and from reduced emissions during repaving). And the potatoes end up costing what they cost to get to you? I'm not sure the potato subsidy is worth distorting the transport economics.

Also potatoes are easy to grow! And ship in powdered form for cheap!

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#298

Post by afterburner »

martinald wrote: post #254
closetohome wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought that fares should be more symbolic than a real source of revenue. They should definitely be low enough that even the poorest residents of the city can easily afford to travel on public transportation.

Why? Transport for London is close, if not past, covering operational (and some, but not all, very significant capital) expenditure from fares, property and advertising revenue. MTR in Hong Kong also is profitable, as I believe many Japanese networks are. Being run entirely from fares means you are not at the whim of politicians for subsidies and grants that can change overnight with an election, which makes it very…

Are you seriously asking why public transit should be affordable for poor people?

I guess they should just buy a car instead, right? Or live in Manhattan and walk to work?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#299

Post by nicoburns »

InitialLastName wrote: post #175
jkaplowitz wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideas you're saying are quite common in the West, as you say, but that's not the attitude in NYC. Everyone realizes it's worth funding and fixing. The disputes are about the who, what, how, and paid by whom.

The issue is really that the MTA is funded and controlled by the State of New York, while it predominantly serves the City of New York. Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries; they let him get out from under the thumb of the state.

Surely the city could give extra funds to the MTA if it wanted to?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#300

Post by dionidium »

ricardoreis wrote: post #239
dionidium wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have access to any numbers you don't. I've tried to describe the ways in which I think the numbers can be used to tell a misleading and unnecessarily apocalyptic story. If I've failed to make that case on the merits, then I'll have to live with that, but just for the record, the 20% figure I gave was plainly illustrative, not a quote of actual figures; your references to it demonstrate the power of the anchor…

That's fine - non-quantitative (a.k.a. "gut") reasoning is a valid and useful cognitive tool (in certain contexts), in fact. If I was to give a "gut" estimate for the overall deterioration of the subway service in recent years, though -- I'd peg it at closer to 30 or 40 percent than merely 20.

A NYC Subway that’s 40% worse than it was 10 years ago is still by far the best transit system in North America.

Now, look, that doesn’t mean it’s good that it’s declined so much, but context and perspective remain useful.

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