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A note to our employees

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291–300 of 421 posts

Re: A note to our employees

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not a norm in other companies to penalize people's performance reviews for failing to complete routine training It's a norm pretty much everywhere to penalize people's performance reviews for failure to perform required job tasks on time, I know of no employer that doesn't do that (or, at least, expect supervisor to do it.) It may not be normal to apply a systematic penalty of a preset value to failing this p…

See, when you read my comments and try to infer what I'm saying, you seem to do a pretty good job of it. So, can I ask, rather than nitpicking (for instance, that termination is itself a form of performance-based penalty), that you simply take whatever inference you've drawn and respond to that ? You've put a whole lot of effort into clarifying what it is I'm asking --- well done! I think you've nailed it! --- but yo…

> that you simply take whatever inference you've drawn and respond to that?

I rather explicitly did that in my first response, where I both set out what I inferred you were really concerned about and responded (in a speculative manner) directly to that inferred concern.

EDIT: to be absolutely clear—

Inference: “What you probably don't understand is really why is the penalty not immediate termination, or termination after a certain period of delinquency”

Response: “and I suspect it actually is [termination after a period of delinquency], and the downgrade in internal rating is the immediate and automatic consequence of delinquency”

Re: A note to our employees

#292
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From context I'd guess he means 45% male, 45% female, 10% non-binary.

Is that a real policy for anywhere? How / where do you find 10% non binary from? I don’t think there’s enough people to go around even if you hired every single non binary person in a given city.

I did mean 10% as non/binary, but my numbers were just notional. I should have been more clear.

I think, especially with improved technology, that 10% will be more common. Cynically thinking, it will be easier if there were some specific quota. Gender is probably the easiest protected class to change after religion, so it’s especially sensitive to outcome quotas.

Re: A note to our employees

#293
post #112

Serious question: Does the Chief Diversity Officer include diversity of ideas and experience? Or is it just skin deep like it sounds? Edit: Lots of up and down votes. Why is this question so controversial? I'd like to see an argument as to why it's an invalid or flawed question.

To me the notion of a need for diversity in a workplace is absurd. Seriously, whats the point? There are and always have been professions dominated by men and those dominated by women. From the perspective of an employer, gender, skin colour or political views should be completely irrelevant when it comes to making a hire/no hire decision. By introducing rules that aim to achieve a 50/50 distribution of e.g. each gen…

"There are and always have been professions dominated by men and those dominated by women."

And a lot of that was caused by pervasive discrimination.

Re: A note to our employees

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What % of incidents were first offenses? Unless it's a really low number, firing after first offense won't reduce the total number of incidents enough.

I disagree. You're assuming that only direct punishment can affect behavior, when the _threat_ of punishment after first offense can also affect behavior. As a ridiculous hyperbole: assume a life in prison minimum sentence is established for speeding, on the first offense, and that it's actually enforced. I guarantee you that very quickly we'd have everyone driving under the posted speed limit at all times.

You're assuming offenders anticipate the bad things they do drunk and thus can be deterred.

Re: A note to our employees

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I see! I wasn’t familiar with this term. So, this system is used in the United States, right?

The poster was suggesting a hypothetical situation where that is a policy. Very few places in the US have 50/50 gender quotas, and I doubt any have quotas which include non-binary people. I believe they were mocking the idea.

I was not mocking the idea, but giving an example where a reasonable quota led to bad outcomes. While I’m against outcome quotas, I’m firmly against discrimination (including mocking) of people based on who they are.

Re: A note to our employees

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you are an alcoholic, and you literally can't control yourself. Then parading out alcohol and then punishing her by firing her for not being able to control herself seems a bit unfair.

That would sound like a case where the employee could disclose her alcoholism as a disability, and request the "reasonable accommodation" that no work events she is required to attend have alcohol. Then, if it can be demonstrated that she's actually required to go to a drinking event, gets trashed and acts an ass, she's got a wrongful termination claim. IANAL of course

Many substance-abuse disorders are not treated as special-accommodation-worthy (in courts often or by HR departments by policy) in the the US. Alcoholism is one such example (Alcohol Abuse Disorder is not a qualifier for disability status without additional presenting symptoms, or exceptional luck during disability determination).

That reality, and the reality of addiction, presents a few problems for the hypothetical employee here:

- Attending work events that do have alcohol may cause them to endure a great deal of hardship (talk to a recently-abstinent alcoholic if you doubt this).

- Addiction has no conclusive test or diagnosis--AAD and other indicators are often not present in people who enter rehab, or in people whose substance abuse is identified as a primary motivator for criminal behavior by courts. This means that "getting trashed and acting like an ass", for "real addicts" (whatever that means, which is a troublesome qualifier to add in and of itself) is difficult to prove to be the fault of the company providing alcohol, and for non-addicts is a convenient out (if provided to the former group).

- "Actually required to go to an event" is another troublesome category. Many events aren't "required" . . . unless you want to get promoted/not eventually get fired in favor of someone who attended. I don't propose some legal solution to this (everything I can think of would effectively be thought-policing), but it's an important ambiguity to acknowledge.

- Even if a humane HR/management department exists to whom the hypothetical employee could disclose their condition as a disability, and even if that department lobbied the employee's managers/colleagues to prevent addiction from being a disadvantage to their career, that would still likely result in either a breach of that employee's privacy or eventual prejudice seeping in (e.g. via turnover inside HR) regardless. Not good.

- If those recourses fail, and the employee ends up before the courts pleading wrongful-termination or equivalent based on their addiction, the (at least state) US court system and arbitration organizations are notoriously inconsistent and prejudiced against claims of addiction as any sort of mitigating or complicating circumstance. A company interested in preserving the autonomy, promotability, and dignity of addicted employees would likely view the courts as something the employee in question should be kept away from for their own benefit.

There are many other considerations.

Now, many of those apply to any uncommon disability condition, and it could be argued that below a certain point a very few employees' accommodations should not ruin the fun for everyone else. Even if you buy that argument, the incidence of addiction/substance-abuse related serious lifestyle trouble—principally at work or in romantic relationships—for very large numbers of people in the US is well documented.

Perhaps it would be better to simply forbid the creation of such situations on the company dime.

Re: A note to our employees

#297
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Equity is the goal.” I don’t think this is a good goal. Unless you mean equity of opportunity. Equity of outcome is a ridiculously foolish goal in that outcomes will vary substantially and trying to have equity at the end on arbitrary human factors with easy to measure biases (gender, race, etc). So the goal is not 45/45/10 for gender distribution for all roles. As that is obviously impossible as roles change and th…

With a high enough sample size, shouldn't equity of outcome reflect equity of opportunity?

Perhaps, but it wouldn’t be useful for companies since even google’s 20k population wouldn’t be big enough to clear out all of the confounding variables.

Re: A note to our employees

#298
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Your boss tells you to do something. You either do it, or she fires you. If you expect anything different, you are deluded.

Eh, my workplace isn't like that, my management is happy to entertain my pushbacks to a point. If it was like that I'd quit in a heartbeat.

Sure. But I don't think anybody is talking about immediate firings without warning here.

If your manager keeps telling you, you have to do X, for a month and you simply refuse to do it, they'd be quite right to fire you.

Re: A note to our employees

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, when you read my comments and try to infer what I'm saying, you seem to do a pretty good job of it. So, can I ask, rather than nitpicking (for instance, that termination is itself a form of performance-based penalty), that you simply take whatever inference you've drawn and respond to that ? You've put a whole lot of effort into clarifying what it is I'm asking --- well done! I think you've nailed it! --- but yo…

> that you simply take whatever inference you've drawn and respond to that? I rather explicitly did that in my first response, where I both set out what I inferred you were really concerned about and responded (in a speculative manner) directly to that inferred concern. EDIT: to be absolutely clear— Inference: “What you probably don't understand is really why is the penalty not immediate termination, or termination a…

I mean, yes, I guess "I don't know" is a fine answer. It's fine that you don't want to engage, but weird that you want to litigate what the question itself is. But, OK.

Re: A note to our employees

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time you've excluded all the possible activities that someone could find isolating, you've got a pretty boring work environment. Here's the box you will be working in. Don't forget to turn off the light when you leave Friday.

What is wrong with that? It keeps minds focused on what should happen at work: work.

What's wrong is that I have the luxury of working at places that enjoy. I am not going to work at a place that I don't like.

You are free to choose otherwise, but me and many other people have the ability of quiting and working in better work environments.

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