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Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

theguardian.com

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Re: Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

#291

Post by djrogers »

pouetpouet wrote: post #253
dmix wrote: post #244

Once all cars become electric this will solve one of the biggest problems. Then once they become self-driving the other 25% of noise (honking, sirens, etc) would be significantly reduced.

Half of the problem with cars is a geometric one, they take up too much space. They give rise to sprawl and thus increase the demand for cars in a vicious cycle. Them being electric or self driving will not solve that.

If we can reduce the incidence of accidents with autonomous vehicles, they can be much much smaller...

Re: Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

#292

Post by 8xde0wcNwpslOw »

CydeWeys wrote: post #200
rimliu wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? People drive on the ice and snow all the time, what are you talking about? Not all countries have mild climate, you know.

Many people don't though (look at how attendance rates plummet at schools and businesses on heavy snow days), and of those who do drive anyway, the accident rate is highly elevated.

I cannot relate to what you write at all. In all my years in school, I did not witness a single day of attendance drop due to weather (the only weather-related exception was for the early years of elementary school, when you could choose not to go outside during breaks if the temperature was low enough, but that was rarely the case here near the coast).

What's more, in bad weather people (who have the option to choose between public transportation and their own vehicles) tend to choose cars more often because public transit has a habit of becoming increasingly unreliable, especially due to winter conditions, even though such conditions can be reasonably expected for 6 months a year.

Re: Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

#293

Post by astura »

claydavisss wrote: post #133
dagw wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there are always going to be people like us who want an 'archaic' life style which require an archaic mode of transportation, but the world shouldn't be optimizing for these people, and I see nothing wrong with making these people pay extra for the externalizes their lifestyles impose.

But in the US, it is the (vast) minority who wants to live a pedestrian lifestyle. If you look around the US you will see that even today, investment in suburbia far outpaces investment in "urbanism". Trucks and SUVs are slowly cannibalizing sedan sales in the US. So not only do people like driving, the vehicles they tend to purchase are increasing in size. If you are suggesting that society somehow prioritizes the 0…

Car centric life is not better for the elderly and the disabled, quite the opposite.

Elderly and disabled people are often can't safely drive due to either physical limitations (eyesight, reaction time, arthritis, seizures, limited movements, dizziness and fainting, etc., etc., etc.) or practical limitations (a car that accommodates a driver in a wheelchair with hand controls is a specialty item that costs $90,000+, I'm not making that number up, there was an article about it on HN a bit ago). Even if and individual has a ride it can be difficult to transport a motorized scooter in a standard sedan or compact car: going to the park with the grandkids is out without a folding wheelchair, which, depending on the individual's limitations, can make that person dependent on someone else to push them around.

Whereas electric scooters and wheelchairs can navigate easily and independently in pedestrian friendly zones when designed with accommodation in mind. And accommodation is now the law.

Also women and married people don't exactly, by definition, prefer driving over walking, dunno where you're getting that from. In fact, women drive less than men on average.

Re: Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

#294

Post by fergie »

strictnein wrote: post #247
montenegrohugo wrote: post #3

This may be shocking to people with an American upbringing, but cars (especially privately owned ones) just do not make sense going forward. Cities get bigger and denser, and wasting a big % of land on parking spaces, roads, intersections and accepting a horrible air quality (that reduces citizen life spans and health quality) and noise pollution just does not make any sense anymore. Carse are effective in less dense…

> This may be shocking to people with an American upbringing, but cars (especially privately owned ones) just do not make sense going forward. You're really looking at this from a very narrow mindset. It isn't going into the city that a lot of Americans really want and need cars, it's heading out of the city. This may be shocking to people with a European upbringing, but when you have a vast country with lots of open…

There are several European countries with a lower population density than the US, and places like Norway and Finland are _much_ more sparsely populated

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...

Re: Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

#295

Post by Razengan »

skh wrote: post #29
montenegrohugo wrote: post #3

This may be shocking to people with an American upbringing, but cars (especially privately owned ones) just do not make sense going forward. Cities get bigger and denser, and wasting a big % of land on parking spaces, roads, intersections and accepting a horrible air quality (that reduces citizen life spans and health quality) and noise pollution just does not make any sense anymore. Carse are effective in less dense…

I lived for a while in Berlin. Coming back to the U.S. the first thing I noticed were too many billboards and ugly parking lots. Each store has its own parking lot. Largely underused. No nice paths to traverse the bleak endless parking lot landscape. It’s ugly and wasteful. It’s hostile to pedestrians and discourages people from going outside to just wander. Even in relatively walkable communities like the one I live…

> I wish I could move to Europe permanently.

This is the "Vote with your wallet" at the international civic level.

It may not have been very convenient or practical in the past but it seems to be becoming an increasingly accessible option, at least for first-world people.

Move to the places whose ideals align with yours, and help them develop those, if you can't convince your current home to adopt them.

Re: Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

#296

Post by eloycoto »

anthk wrote: post #228
CapricornNoble wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There ARE some great suggestions in the article, namely underground parking, roundabouts instead of stop lights, and banning street parking. Now, to YOUR points: "Mass transit": Shared and claustrophobic space with other travelers. "Biking lanes": Requires exposure to the elements. Depending on where you live this is already a non-starter if you don't want to arrive at your destination drenched in sweat. "electro-sco…

Pontevedra mild climate? MediteWHAT? Please, take a map of Spain and comment again. Spain among Portugal is what you see when you cross over the Atlantic from the US. Pontevedra is in Galicia, northern Spain. Here it rains like UK, and even worse. No Sun except a very few weeks a year. Not all Spain is sunny, and not all the US is like California, Texas or Florida. You would freeze in Castille or Aragon in Winter. Yo…

Not really true this one :-)

The last 10 years there are no longer rains, and the sun is here from late May to October, last year we have big wildfires in the last weekend of October, water restrictions from Sept due to the drought.

I remember when I was 10 years old rain a lot, nowadays no more than London ( I lived in London for a year).

Regards

Re: Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

#297

Post by ryanwaggoner »

Avalaxy wrote: post #251
azamatms wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what stops most people is the 50% paycut compared to US salaries I'd move to Berlin in a heartbeat if it weren't for that

It's not a fair comparison though. Yes, the salary is lower, but you can free or almost free healthcare, you get many vacation days, you get vacation money (at least in the netherlands), you get paid time off when sick, more job stability, unemployment benefits, etc.

The healthcare argument isn't really that compelling, because most white-collar professionals in the USA have pretty good health insurance through their work. The extra time off is excellent, but you can put a dollar value on it and it doesn't come close to adding up to the paycut. You also pay higher taxes, and the cost for other goods and services (food for example) is often higher.

Disposable income for a senior developer in a major market in the US is likely to be much higher than their counterpart in the EU.

There may be other harder-to-measure cultural or quality-of-life reasons that make the tradeoff worth it, but I don't think "free healthcare" and a few weeks off comes close to making the case quantitatively.

Re: Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

#298

Post by francisofascii »

sebringj wrote: post #279

I don't know why this didn't occur to me but in San Juan Capistrano, CA, I enjoy that place so much with my kids because of the fairly large area where cars have to have very slow speed limit or no cars allowed at all and pure walking which was far better even. There is such freedom allowing your children to laugh and play and walk on their own pace without worrying they'll be run over and having to strictly hold the…

Exactly. Walking with young kids is so stressful. All that kids want to do is run ahead, and I keep having to yell at them to stop, wait. You can never be at ease.

Re: Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

#299

Post by TomK32 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #155
eloycoto wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, Van and trucks can enter the city the first time in the morning, so things are ok, and there are no problems for that. The city itself is a "round island", so cars can go close to the estuary and be close to the city, so get into city center takes less than 15 minutes.

>and there are no problems for that. Forcing all deliveries to happen in the early morning sounds like a massive pain in the butt. For example: Forcing a lunch/dinner restaurant to have people there early to deal with inventory or delivering inventory to a diner during breakfast rush are both far from ideal. Any industry that routinely has to get materials (e.g. skilled trades) delivered will be inconvenienced by not…

That's a few markets out of many, of which the plurality is outside and accessible 24/7. I't really no big issue to get those deliveries in by noon.

Re: Life in the Spanish city that banned cars

#300

Post by _Codemonkeyism »

archi42 wrote: post #213
shackenberg wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hyperbole is obviously wrong or do you have any facts to show it? I don't know anyone enjoying taking the car in Berlin and one is often faster with public transport or the bike in the city center. > rebrand itself as bicycle friendly Shocking! Political parties changing course to adapt to change in popular opinion.

To add to this: I wouldn't call it "most car friendly city in Germany", either - but driving there isn't "hell on earth" either: I felt it's neither better nor worse than e.g. Kaiserslautern or the 10k inhabitants "city" I went to school - the traffic is just on a different scale due to the city being huge (compared to most other German cities). (Disclaimer: I'm a relaxed driver; my experience might not hold for thos…

Berlin built a very expensive tunnel in the city center, still expands the inner Autobahn ring, has large east/west streets (Stalinallee and 17th June), parking was free in residential areas until very recently, tickets for parking in the wrong spots are a joke and cars parking on sidewalks or bicycle lanes are pracically never ticketed. Bicycle police which was introduced to ticket cars and bicycles practically in the same way never tickets car drivers [1]

Compare this with the pedestrian infrastructure (many bad sidewalks in the East) or bicycle with no or chaotic lanes [2]. Also when houses are build or roads are maintained, car driver concerns are always prioritized above cyclists and pedestrians [3].

[1] https://rad-spannerei.de/2015/07/14/berliner-fahrradstaffel-...

[2] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/mediacenter/fotostrecken/berlin/...

[3] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/schild-soeren-dumpf/22966...

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