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Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

blog.infinitenegativeutility.com

291–300 of 348 posts

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#291
post #30

…well, it would have been, but for some reason I kept struggling to get through it. I thought highly of it, but my secret shame was that my admiration for the book was based mostly on the first two hundred or so pages. It took slogging effort to get myself through the rest, effort sporadically applied over the course of years. I did eventually make my way through the whole thing, but even now, I can’t necessarily be…

You are making a simple assertion that the metaphor was good without any explanation, while the author made a deep and cutting explanation as to why he he believes it’s a terrible metaphor. You’ve made no counter argument.

Maybe Hofstadter hadn't chosen the best metaphor, but criticizing it from the point that it contains too many irrelevant details isn't unlike dismissing the use of apples for teaching counting numbers (what happens if I bite an apple, what if an apple is larger than another one and so on).

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#292
Since the record player analogy was mentioned, I'll just quote the relevant entry from the Index of GEB, page 772. If the potential wonderment of the curiosities and untapped frontiers teased herein don't explode the mind of your 18-year-old self reading the book for the first time, there may be no hope for you.

record players: alien-rejecting, 487-88; Epsilon-Zero, 486; family of, in Crab's jukebox, 154-57; Grand Self-assembling, see record player Epsilon-Zero; as information-revealers, 158-61, 164; intrinsic vulnerability of, 75-86, 102, 424, 470, 486-86, 536, 543, 584, 721, see also Tödelization, TC-battles, etc.; likened to formal systems, 84, 85; low-fidelity, 77, 85, 101, 406-7, 470; Omega, 78, 468, 483-84; Numbers 1, 2 ... etc., 76-77; Tortoise-chomping, 483, 487-88; two-channel monaural, 634, 669; see also jukeboxes

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#293
post #45
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. 100 times, this. GEB is an alright book, but nobody I know has actually managed to finish it. I Am A Strange Loop discusses the exact same thing, but does so with the experience of years of writing in metaphor, and more importantly, entirely in metaphor . All of the metaphors are well-crafted in that they are both a pleasure to imagine, can be recalled rather easily, and accurately map to what the author is try…

I read the whole book in almost one go over a weekend when I was 20. I think I took 3 hour break to sleep. I was very hungry and tired but I was unable to stop. I read it again in next six months in small pieces afterwards.

So now I have to get it out and read it a fourth (fifth?) time. I don't really have the time but I have to.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely think GEB is important to getting into IAASL, which is why after I got into the book a bit I put it down and really made an effort to get into GEB. IAASL can totally be read on it's own, but I think it's fair to say you at least want to have a copy of GEB around to look at while you're reading it. I can't recommend that course enough too. I guess I couldn't find the book on my own. So anyone that can, gr…

What's IAASL?

Hofstadter's other work, I Am a Strange Loop.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#295
I haven't read GEB yet, but I had a similar experience reading "I Am A Strange Loop." It was too prosy, too long, too many examples and too obvious for anyone that has thought about these things before. It didn't go deep enough or propose mechanisms for anything. If you've never thought about any of these things before you might find it cool, otherwise it's a verbose rehash of things that have been said in better ways.

https://altreason.com/i-am-a-strange-loop/

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#296
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "fulfill himself as a flight" mean? Is the lesson that since professors are "less free" than everyone else, they criticize everyone else out of bitterness? Or is it that since they're so specialized and able to make a living only in their specialty, they don't need to practise good judgement outside their discipline? Is it that they live in an ivory tower and don't know the difference between theory and pra…

What does "fulfills himself as a flight."? We need to define flight here: "a brilliant, imaginative, or unrestrained exercise or display" [1]. So he fulfills himself as a a brilliant, imaginative, or unrestrained exercise or display. He toots his own horn, to promote oneself; to boast or brag; to tout oneself [2]. What does the quote mean? They (some doctors and professors in this quote) have abdicated their freedom…

a more obvious contemporary example might be elon musk.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IAASL also has one of the best (and easiest to understand) descriptions of non human sentience-when he talks about why he’s a vegetarian.

I am not a vegan, but his consciousness cone is something I seem to bring up frequently with people. Usually by the end of the conversation I don't quite know why I'm not vegan aside from habit. Last time I brought it up I was eating sushi and talking about how I had decided to quit eating cephalopods because they might be smarter than humans... But then ate pork belly and just didn't really know what I stood for any…

> quit eating cephalopods because they might be smarter than humans

Ahem, what?

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#298
post #290
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> think he was 24? I think it's pretty incredible considering his age. This makes sense. I read the book at age of 20 or so, and it made me to change my life and change my career path. It's very playful, it informs, connects and educates. I think older and more cynical me might not have enjoyed it so much. I think "Metamagical Themes" and the "Fluid concepts and analogies" are his best books although GEP had the larg…

This parallels its influence on me as well. In particular FCaCA has been a good source to learn how to narrow down problems so they can be tackled without diluting the original essence of the problem. Masterful treatment in my opinion. I still think Hofstadter's "old school AI" thought processes warrant more attention in today's DL frenzy than they get. His books have been a great source of very interesting questions…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#299
post #290
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> think he was 24? I think it's pretty incredible considering his age. This makes sense. I read the book at age of 20 or so, and it made me to change my life and change my career path. It's very playful, it informs, connects and educates. I think older and more cynical me might not have enjoyed it so much. I think "Metamagical Themes" and the "Fluid concepts and analogies" are his best books although GEP had the larg…

This parallels its influence on me as well. In particular FCaCA has been a good source to learn how to narrow down problems so they can be tackled without diluting the original essence of the problem. Masterful treatment in my opinion. I still think Hofstadter's "old school AI" thought processes warrant more attention in today's DL frenzy than they get. His books have been a great source of very interesting questions…

For anyone scratching their head, FCaCA is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_Concepts_and_Creative_An...

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#300
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The book. Apologies, you are right, should have been clearer. I think the other comments at the time were also about the book, not the article.

So now we have to consider the specter of someone writing an overly verbose review of something that reduces to "tl;dr". Someone might summarize the review by writing "tl;dr: tl;dr". Or they might express the same thing, but overly verbosely, so someone might summarize their response by writing "tl;dr: tl;dr: tl;dr". In general, if N "tl;dr"s is a valid sentiment, and any valid sentiment can be expressed overly verbo…

Well done. Shame it's buried under N comments.
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