Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#291

Post by downandout » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

DmenshunlAnlsis wrote: post #290

downandout wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually started this this with 1 comment genuinely asking how people could possibly endorse illegal immigration. No one actually expressed any defensible position, and they still haven’t. When people reply, I need to respond to those comments. And what I said stands. I rarely comment here anymore. I have as much right to be here as you do.

Actually you just dodged the cogent response you received. Because many of these people are essentially refugees fleeing violence and extreme poverty in their home countries. Instead of helping these people we're tearing them from their families. Then you framed your reply in terms of Mexico only, which ignored places like El Salvador, although maybe that’s just more “Mexico” in your mind? Point being, you’ve gotten…

I responded to that comment up above. I focused on Mexico because that is by far the largest source of illegal immigrants to the US. Not a single reply has answered my question as to why anyone would endorse illegal immigration. Many countries have many problems, we cannot just take in all of their residents.

I think it’s terrible that families are being separated. But I don’t know of another solution when their parents are choosing to bring their children with them to commit a crime.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#292

Post by briantakita » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #215

briantakita wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true. Illegal immigrants contribute more to the human trafficking economy, the drug economy, & the sub-minimum wage work economy than they get out of it. The real beneficiaries are the oligarchs pushing the open borders agenda. Why not make their homelands better places to live instead? Why must all culture & communities be perpetually disrupted with war, economic liberalism, socialism, drugs, human traffickin…

I agree with your latter parts. For example, the Iraq war takes a lot of blame for the refugee crisis in Europe. For the second sentence, I'm not sure the first bit is true and paints large swathes of people with the worst examples of them.

I'm not talking about generalizations about people. I'm talking about the integrity of systems.

Here's an analogy. What happens when you open the membrane of a cell? Would it be atomist to not allow anything & everything to penetrate into the internals of the cell?

The USA has the benefit of a strong economy & a strong set of laws. When you open the border, the laws are weakened while criminal elements that have been nurtured in states with weaker laws (& weakened culture) are naturally drawn to the strong economy & weakened set of laws.

All one needs to do is look around for the proof. Illegal Fentanyl & Heroin is trafficked through Mexico. Law abiding Mexican people are the victims of gruesome cartel violence.

5 of the top 10 most dangerous cities in the world are in Mexico. All of the top 10 most dangerous cities in the world are in Mexico, Venezuela, and Brazil. Something very wrong is happening & opening the borders in NOT the solution. In fact, it's part of the same system, with the same people being responsible, that is destroying these countries.

We need to look beyond labels (e.g. Humanitarian) and look at the results of the works. Sometimes what is seen as a "good deed" is really a Trojan Horse of misery.

One thing about psychopathy; these people don't care about ideology. They care about dominating others & will collaborate with other psychopaths, across ideologies, to further their aims.

Open Borders is push by wealthy people who don't have to deal with the consequences. They benefit from destroying the surrounding culture because with a debased culture, they can dominate the population. Many are also manipulative. They will encourage outrage over myopic matters, to control the narrative to distract everybody from the real issues at play.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#293

Post by drb91 » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

staticautomatic wrote: post #286

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The assertion that America is only for people who are already here is both radical and relatively recent. That's not a very accurate reading of American history. There have been many instances in America's past of anti-immigrant sentiment, and even violence. Here's a particularly good article about anti-immigrant cartoons from the early 1900s: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/racist-...

You and others who replied to my comment have rightfully pointed out that America's anti-immigration policies have primarily been rooted in racism. Granted. That said, I think you've responded to a point that is related to but different from mine. My observation is that the rhetoric around immigration has noticeably evolved from "Those people aren't allowed in" to also include "The only people who can rightfully be h…

(I was another person who replied) I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, and it is incredibly frustrating and heartbreaking to watch what is happening around the country for literally my entire life (I was born in '91) but especially today with what is essentially concentration camps for people who want to be part of our country.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#294

Post by ginger123 » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

I have a feeling "dang" is trying to censor comments he doesn't agree with. Chill dang! A diversity of thought is good for everyone. Removing racist comments is ok, but removing moving this discussion thread itself from public view amounts to censoring.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#295

Post by undersuit » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #194

sanderjd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tldr: I'll be in favor of cracking down on illegal immigrants when people stop hiring them for fear of getting in trouble. This is a naive reading of the politics. Very few people are actively in favor of illegal immigration. Many people believe the cures (that is, the ones that politicians push for) are worse than the disease. My personal view is that if we really wanted to solve the problem, we would do it on the e…

What would the process look like for authenticating individuals that wish to work for your company? Or maybe more precisely, what would meet the burden of proof for any reasonable regulation around such a thing? This would just drive up the value of stolen identities and make illegal immigrants even more indentured to organized criminals that supply them with such.

The reason stolen identities are used is because our current processes to allow immigrants to work are purposely limited.

Allow any immigrant to declare themselves. Give them an immigrant specific id so that they can go to an employer and work legally while paying local, state, and federal taxes.

Keeping the system closed is what allows exploitation. Stolen identities are needed to work in the closed system else the boss needs to break the law, and plenty of employers do just that.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#296

Post by evanlivingston » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 6:57 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #287

DmenshunlAnlsis wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the love of god, stick to the rant in your profile. As of May 28, 2018, after nearly 7 years and over 13K karma points, I am no longer going to be very active on HN. This used to be a place where thoughtful conversation could take place; now it's nothing more than a den of bullies attempting to spread misinformation that supports their political views. Enjoy your echo chamber everyone. The irony given the sheer v…

I actually started this this with 1 comment genuinely asking how people could possibly endorse illegal immigration. No one actually expressed any defensible position, and they still haven’t. When people reply, I need to respond to those comments. And what I said stands. I rarely comment here anymore. I have as much right to be here as you do.

I expressed a position upthread but you didn't reply.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#297

Post by eeeuo » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #291

DmenshunlAnlsis wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually you just dodged the cogent response you received. Because many of these people are essentially refugees fleeing violence and extreme poverty in their home countries. Instead of helping these people we're tearing them from their families. Then you framed your reply in terms of Mexico only, which ignored places like El Salvador, although maybe that’s just more “Mexico” in your mind? Point being, you’ve gotten…

I responded to that comment up above. I focused on Mexico because that is by far the largest source of illegal immigrants to the US. Not a single reply has answered my question as to why anyone would endorse illegal immigration. Many countries have many problems, we cannot just take in all of their residents. I think it’s terrible that families are being separated. But I don’t know of another solution when their pare…

The solution is to not separate them. You're not arguing in good faith when you suggest that the two possible binary outcomes are (a) unrestricted immigration or (b) separating kids from their parents.

Many of the illegal immigrants come to the border to flee violence or crippling poverty. They have to bring their kids. If they had the time or the income or the support system to migrate legally, they would.

With regards to your original point, I fail to see why Americans are not within their rights to protest laws that they feel are unjust. The employees understood that they may be fired for their views, but they did it because they could not in good conscience perform the work. You ignored the immediate reply about Jim Crow laws, but it's a good comparison. Would you also be angry with people that did not want to enforce Jim Crow laws?

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#298

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 7:30 PM UTC

factsaresacred wrote: post #242

drb91 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's another billion waiting to enter. I think you’re vastly overestimating how much people want to move here. Furthermore, legal immigration would not lower wages. It’s the fact that we don’t provide a legalization process that allows people to charge under minimum wage.

> I think you’re vastly overestimating how much people want to move here. I am not. The US is still the top destination for migrants. > legal immigration would not lower wages I agree. We're talking about illegal immigration though. If everybody followed the legal process, great!

In other words, driving immigrants underground rather than giving them status (which is practically impossible for most people to get except through marriage) makes it possible for employers to underpay them and abuse them and assume they won't complain.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#299

Post by jcims » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:42 PM UTC

undersuit wrote: post #295

jcims wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would the process look like for authenticating individuals that wish to work for your company? Or maybe more precisely, what would meet the burden of proof for any reasonable regulation around such a thing? This would just drive up the value of stolen identities and make illegal immigrants even more indentured to organized criminals that supply them with such.

The reason stolen identities are used is because our current processes to allow immigrants to work are purposely limited. Allow any immigrant to declare themselves. Give them an immigrant specific id so that they can go to an employer and work legally while paying local, state, and federal taxes. Keeping the system closed is what allows exploitation. Stolen identities are needed to work in the closed system else the…

No argument from me, but we're switching topics from holding employers accountable for the identity of the people they hire.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#300

Post by jcims » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

burfog wrote: post #247

jcims wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would the process look like for authenticating individuals that wish to work for your company? Or maybe more precisely, what would meet the burden of proof for any reasonable regulation around such a thing? This would just drive up the value of stolen identities and make illegal immigrants even more indentured to organized criminals that supply them with such.

Put aside the illegal aliens for the moment. What about all the US citizens who might use stolen identities? For example, one of your workers disappears and you discover that they walked off with $millions worth of your stuff. You report this grand theft, giving the police the supposed identity. The police later tell you that this person died 3 years before you hired him. For example, you hire somebody who uses a sto…

I'm not contesting the importance of correct identity. My point is that there are limited facilities available to authenticate the identity of any given human, and that if we increase the value of being able to identify as a known American, we'll increase the criminal interest in bestowing that upon those that are able to pay for it.