How does ‘class-passing’ actually work? • Hacker News Board

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#291

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 10:37 PM UTC

Helmet wrote: post #284

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>edit: This site is slowly turning into Reddit - contrarian opinions need not apply. Instead of down-votes, why not rebut what I said? It's not like the matter is settled, and the last couple times the populous tried to "abolish" social classes, mass terror followed. Now now relax. You're in a thread about class and you're saying that class distinctions are good because they glue our society together. You don't think…

> Now now relax. We can have a sensible discussion without condescension. > You're in a thread about class and you're saying that class distinctions are good......You don't think those people who have experienced the bottom are going to have a reaction to that? I've "experienced bottom" and I don't really find what I said to be inflammatory or offensive, if we're willing to be honest with ourselves, it's rather quite…

>We can have a sensible discussion without condescension.

Fair.

>I've "experienced bottom" and I don't really find what I said to be inflammatory or offensive, if we're willing to be honest with ourselves, it's rather quite self-evident.

Well no. It may be self-evident when you're honest with yourself but when "we're" honest with "ourselves" it's not at all, hence the downvotes and disagreement in the replies.

>I'm familiar with how "easy" or not it is - I've lived it. If you graduate high school and don't have a kid before you are married, you're pretty much guaranteed to enter the middle-class.

This is the success sequence stuff? Look it's just not very true. Almost the entirety of various 'success sequence' poverty figures can be explained by one thing: maintaining full-time work. Everything else is small or zero. Well maintaining full-time work isn't always easy! There's a variety of circumstances outside ones control which can affect your ability to maintain full-time work.

http://www.demos.org/blog/8/13/15/success-sequence-extremely...

>What exactly do you mean? Do I think that racially homogeneous societies exhibit more social order? I don't know, that to me sounds like a question for a social scientist or sociologist.

You didn't need a social scientist or sociologist to declare that class distinctions are natural and helpful. Why the trepidation on race?

>I don't find it to be analogous to what we're talking about here though, as one cannot change their race, but many are socially mobile.

Are many mobile in an effortful sense though? Say I have a society where at birth we roll a bingo machine filled with balls 1-5 and we assign you to a quintile. This society would demonstrate perfect intergenerational mobility yet there would be no way to exert effort and change your circumstance - same as race. Now what if instead of a bingo machine we just had a very large 'luck' component to mobility? It's the same deal. It's not just about how many went from bottom quintile to third quintile or better, it's about how it happened.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#292

Post by padobson » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 10:38 PM UTC

marnett wrote: post #72

afuchs wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... > The evil rich people figured out that if you start a gender and race war among the 99%, you can distract them from the fact that they're all being economically exploited and subjected to wage slavery. > ... Stated this way, this appears to handwave real problems away. Yes, racial and gender issues are often exploited for political gain; but these issues usually have a basis in real problems.

Totally understood, and advancing social progress and acceptance is very important, however, issues of economic inequality and the associated policies and government decisions that aid this increasing gap affect nearly 99% of the US population - they are inarguably more pressing, more important issues. Thus, I can agree with GP when they say these smaller issues, ones that affect very few Americans, but warrant hours…

I agree with you, but those social issue narratives are much easier to consume than the far more wonkish economic policy world.

Why should a member of the bottom 70% care that the top marginal corporate rate was just cut from 36% to 21%?

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#293

Post by tetromino_ » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 10:43 PM UTC

hkmurakami wrote: post #275

Noos wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love this book, but it made me hate everyone :) One of the takeaways I got from it was that every single upper class activity is designed to be incredibly expensive and time consuming, just because only the wealthy can maintain those form of activities. Having driveways made out of gravel, that constantly need to be redone at considerable expense, or having a yacht. Despite this, the true upper class is incredibly…

I think my most memorable passage from that book is that cats are higher class than dogs because they are (mostly) useless. :P The upper class hobbies are definitely a thing. Equestrian > sailing > skiing > golf probably. Golf only being this low because it was "democratized" by muni courses and popularized first by Arnold Palmer, then by Tiger Woods. Skiing is probably the most approachable of the activities for the…

> a $300/day activity that necessitates travel

A $50/day activity at a local hill + a $150 initial investment (one that will last you multiple winters) in some decade-old used equipment at a local swap event.

Skiing is not cheap. But it's extremely expensive only if you have extremely expensive demands - such was wanting to ski while living in an area without hills or snow.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#294

Post by glenneroo » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

saget wrote: post #239

jstarfish wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can, but it doesn't. If anything it drives divisiveness on a scale we've never seen before. Before the internet it used to take 10-20 years to foment discord against a particular group. Now we have a new boogeyman every 18 months and it's always other plebes or pariahs-- never the ruling elite.

Martin Shkreli, Harvey Weinstein, Wall Street protests, and probably others that I forget were aided by the Internet. Hopefully it will become a bigger trend in the future.

Don't forget Wikileaks, et al., e.g. Snowden, Manning, Panama Papers, etc. Arab Spring and resulting unrest in Middle East countries is also notable (related I suppose to Wall street protests?). Thankfully we still have privacy tools like Signal, TOR, Wikileaks, etc. to facilitate these things.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#295

Post by charlesdm » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 10:47 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #246

lucozade wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure the time thing is particularly true but you're absolutely spot on with it being a value of money thing. And you're spot on with your characterisation as to how it works.

I’ll never forget how odd and uncomfortable it felt the first time I went out to lunch with co-workers (at my first “real” job) and this “split the check” thing happened. I always thought it just seemed so much fairer for everyone to figure out what they ate and pay for that. Kind of a culture shock.

Is it? Not co-workers, but I always find it (extremely) annoying that after having a great meal with friends that some of them insist on counting item per item how much they owe at the end of the evening.

Yes, I might have had an extra glass of wine. Or you might have had an extra side dish or a G&T. Let's either just split the bill, or I'll pay today and you'll get the next.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#296

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 10:51 PM UTC

It seems to me that much of the "class" issue is really about pride. I'm higher class than you, so I look down on you. Or, I'm more down-to-earth than you, so I look down on you.

"I'm OK with who I am, and I don't need to look down on anybody to feel OK about myself" sets you free from a lot of the games that are played in the name of "class". (It doesn't make it easier to feel like you fit with other people, but it makes it so that you don't have to try to move to (or stay in) some particular class.)

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#297

Post by ShabbosGoy » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 10:51 PM UTC

gbacon wrote: post #286

emodendroket wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but the guy who always stays after at work, how much of his time is work and how much of it is browsing Reddit?

Fair question. Is that person slacking, projecting, coping, or percolating?

They’re signaling to management. Plain and simple.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#298

Post by nitwit005 » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 10:53 PM UTC

> “But if you go to Silicon Valley dressed like that,” he explains, “they’ll be like, this guy is a suit, he doesn’t dress like a tech person. That matters. The meeting is over.”

Odd how people in suits keep seeming to meet with our CEO then. I guess they all get kicked out? Poor guys.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#299

Post by charlesdm » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 10:54 PM UTC

aje403 wrote: post #97

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really is true that there are unspoken codes and mores to follow, and it was uncomfortable when I didn't Any examples spring to mind?

I'm in my mid 20s. I don't really know any of the ultra-wealthy, but I have some friends who are low execs in IB, Management Consulting, lawyers, have been to virtually every club in the city by now. How to dress when you enter a top club or SoHo House, who to go with, where to go on vacation with what friends to present an image of your wealth, "who did YOU go to the Hamptons with last weekend?" - people present an…

Those people are most likely also up to their eyes in debt, just trying to show off and keeping up with the "true" upper class. Most people in their 20s working jobs won't have substantial wealth, unless they were born into money.

Re: How does ‘class-passing’ actually work?

#300

Post by workthrowaway27 » Thu, Feb 01, 2018, 10:58 PM UTC

rsync wrote: post #287

hsitz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of an entry from The Book of Life, on "Countries for Losers, and Countries for Winners": http://www.thebookoflife.org/countries-for-losers-countries-... I live in the U.S., but I think I'd prefer to live in one of the countries for losers.

"I live in the U.S., but I think I'd prefer to live in one of the countries for losers." ... from the article: "Here is the list of the world’s top Loser Countries: (.nl, .de, .ch, .no, .dk)" As someone who travels to these countries frequently (rsync.net has a Zurich location) I can certainly get on board with the desire to move to Switzerland. It is a nicer country than the US. However, it is a ridiculous notion th…

This is absolutely true, and obvious to anyone open-minded who has spent time in those countries, but good luck trying to have any discussion about the downsides of immigration in the US without getting shouted down as a racist.