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A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

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Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#291

Post by glenneroo »

papermule wrote: post #248
jjgreen wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pedestrians don't.

Pedestrians are, with the exception of some rural areas, provided with dedicated carriage such as a pavement or sidewalk. The rules of crossing the road are well defined and in some European countries pedestrians are even arrested for J walking.

> in some European countries pedestrians are even arrested for J walking.

Not quite, however you may be ticketed, if you happen to do it in front of a grumpy officer. I have only heard of it happening to a friend of a friend and the fine was under 40 euros.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#292

Post by ioulian »

keir-rex wrote: post #202
Svip wrote: post #133

I feel a lot of commenters are simply focusing on what signs can do or what sort of junction to build, rather than focus on the fact that on high speed primary country roads, bicycles shouldn't be sharing the road with the cars. In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS…

There’s a subset of drivers in the UK who have a resentment to sharing the road with cyclists. Their primary arguments follow; “car drivers pay road tax...” or “cyclists should be forced to sit a driving/road test...” blah blah. There are certainly cyclists who do nothing to help the reputation for the rest but car drivers fail to realise how vulnerable cyclists and motorcyclists are.

I live in Belgium. We have a lot of cyclists here, but I think 80% of them don't know their weak position on the road.

As my father said, "They think they are terminators, that if a car crashes into them, the car will break and they will be OK". And that's what I almost always see on the road.

We have a lot of cycling lanes, thank god for that, but sometimes they are not in a good state so all those people tend to share the roadway with other cars. I almost driven into 1 because he was riding a bicycle on a forest road where you can drive 90km/h in a turn.

I do realise how vulnerable cyclists are, I've driven my whole youth to school with one. As a cyclist, I always look when crossing the road, or just around me, to realise where I am and where other people are and do not trust other cars. But most people ignore logic and common sense and just cycle on a roadway.

I still think it's a good idea to have some education on how to use the road. I mean, if a car crashes into a cyclist, the car will have a minor dent, but you can break a lot of things or even die. It's so easy to think before driving on a road because the cycling lane is in bad state.

PS: I also understand that there are bad chauffeurs on the road too, but from my experience, far less than bad cyclists...

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#293

Post by dsego »

alkonaut wrote: post #254
vertex-four wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, in the Netherlands, you could not use a stop sign for that, because a stop sign does not mean "stop and then crawl out into the intersection while maintaining eye contact with other drivers", it means "stop and give way to the road with the higher priority". A proper traffic code should always provide a consistent way to approach any given sign. If there's no working traffic lights and no stop signs, a…

> The thing is, in the Netherlands, you could not use a stop sign for that, because a stop sign does not mean "stop and then crawl out into the intersection while maintaining eye contact with other drivers", it means "stop and give way to the road with the higher priority". A proper traffic code should always provide a consistent way to approach any given sign. The normal solution (used e.g. in Sweden) is to simply a…

I was taught that the shape of the stop sign is octagon (and yield triangle) because you can recognize the shape from behind. The main road doesn't need to have the diamond priority sign. You know you have priority if the you see the octagon or triangular shape on adjoining roads.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#294

Post by falsedan »

kingosticks wrote: post #283
falsedan wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> simple junction alterations as in this particular case I'd propose an even-simpler alteration, which would require zero engineering & road closures: block some of the right sight lines from Dibden to Beaulieu when approaching with a sightscreen, trees, or billboards. Drivers approaching would notice the impaired visibility and switch to a more defensive technique or be more aware of a potential collision.

In theory, yes I agree, some evergreen bushes would be sufficient. But it technically still leaves it possible for a driver to shoot straight over whereas the road change is fool-proof. Plus you don't actually have to close any roads to implement the junction alteration (in this case). Of course it is more expensive and time consuming to implement, I grant you that.

Shooting straight through is safe if Beaulieu is empty, so why prevent it? Even a low wall or hedge would be enough to prompt a driver to check for traffic more carefully than a superficial scan.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#295

Post by alkonaut »

dsego wrote: post #293
alkonaut wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is, in the Netherlands, you could not use a stop sign for that, because a stop sign does not mean "stop and then crawl out into the intersection while maintaining eye contact with other drivers", it means "stop and give way to the road with the higher priority". A proper traffic code should always provide a consistent way to approach any given sign. The normal solution (used e.g. in Sweden) is to simply a…

I was taught that the shape of the stop sign is octagon (and yield triangle) because you can recognize the shape from behind. The main road doesn't need to have the diamond priority sign. You know you have priority if the you see the octagon or triangular shape on adjoining roads.

Not sure I understand what you are saying here...

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#296

Post by lagadu »

papermule wrote: post #238
keir-rex wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a subset of drivers in the UK who have a resentment to sharing the road with cyclists. Their primary arguments follow; “car drivers pay road tax...” or “cyclists should be forced to sit a driving/road test...” blah blah. There are certainly cyclists who do nothing to help the reputation for the rest but car drivers fail to realise how vulnerable cyclists and motorcyclists are.

Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Others road users must have one. ---- It's a shame I'm getting downvoted, but the current state of affairs is that in cities like London bicycles, cars and trucks will be sharing the road for the near-mid future. I'd rather not have trucks or cars in the city, and ideally cyclists would have their own road separate from cars and pedestrians, but I think that'…

You're getting downvoted but here in Denmark while you don't need a license to cycle, if you have a driver's license you can lose it for breaking rules while cycling. Cyclists being familiar with the rules is just as important as car drivers.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#297

Post by Quanttek »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #193
Svip wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. The main type of accident involving cyclists in Denmark are so called 'right turn accidents', where a lorry turning right at a junction hits a cyclists because they are in their blind spot. This obviously happens exclusively in cities. The media has made a big deal about how tragic it is for the cyclists - which it is, but much less about how tragic it is for the driver. Remember, it's not like drivers want t…

Unfortunately, the cycling organizations don't really like to admit that most right turn accidents happen because cyclists don't seem to understand that motor vehicles have blind spots, and big motor vehicles have bigger blind spots. As someone who regularly drives, bikes, walks and uses public transport in Copenhagen, it is blatantly obvious that people just don't know how to handle right turns involving both cars a…

In almost every country (at least in Europe) cars have to yield to any traffic going stright on their right side. This includes both pedestrians and cyclists. And, yes, these have the right to overtake on the right. If straight traffic would have to yield to turning traffic, that would be way too dangerous

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#298

Post by Quanttek »

Svip wrote: post #181
TomMarius wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drivers shouldn't be punished for bad design of the road. A separate bike road should be constructed.

Indeed. The main type of accident involving cyclists in Denmark are so called 'right turn accidents', where a lorry turning right at a junction hits a cyclists because they are in their blind spot. This obviously happens exclusively in cities. The media has made a big deal about how tragic it is for the cyclists - which it is, but much less about how tragic it is for the driver. Remember, it's not like drivers want t…

There is a move away from seperate bike roads because these have a much higher right turn accident rate at junctions and a move towards bike lanes which are safer due to the shared space (more awareness of bikers by drivers)

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#299

Post by lagadu »

lmm wrote: post #246
papermule wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Others road users must have one. ---- It's a shame I'm getting downvoted, but the current state of affairs is that in cities like London bicycles, cars and trucks will be sharing the road for the near-mid future. I'd rather not have trucks or cars in the city, and ideally cyclists would have their own road separate from cars and pedestrians, but I think that'…

Because, while it does occasionally happen, the risk of a cyclist killing or seriously injuring another road user is much lower than the risk of a car driver doing so. Unlicensed cyclists are a much lower risk to other road users than licensed drivers; if anything we should be looking to impose stricter licensing requirements on drivers.

They're still a risk. Not knowing the rules can cause a motorist who did absolutely nothing wrong to kill said cyclist or swerve away from the cyclist and kill someone else not even involved, all because of a negligent cyclist.

That said, demanding a license for cyclists I agree is completely unreasonable.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#300

Post by Lio »

papermule wrote: post #256
lmm wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, while it does occasionally happen, the risk of a cyclist killing or seriously injuring another road user is much lower than the risk of a car driver doing so. Unlicensed cyclists are a much lower risk to other road users than licensed drivers; if anything we should be looking to impose stricter licensing requirements on drivers.

The number of people on bikes running up the inside of vehicles on narrow streets is too high. I’d walk through Bank (a junction in London) 5 times a week and I’d see time and time again people riding up the inside of tipper trucks and buses indicating to turn left. It happens all the time. I’d witness 3-4 near misses a month. Rule 73 of the Highway Code: > Pay particular attention to long vehicles which need a lot o…

It's a mistake to conflate cyclists filtering through traffic and undertaking.

The Highways Code specifically mentions that motorcycles do this also Rule 88 [1] and tells drivers that that they should be aware of other road users including cyclists doing this too [2] Rule 21.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-motor...

[2] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/road-users-requ...

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