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Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

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Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#291

Post by stale2002 »

romanovcode wrote: post #280
stale2002 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are at fault because they are systematically underpaying women of equal qualifications. It does not matter what the "reason" is. It does not matter if the bias is because equally skilled women merely ask for raises less often. If for any reason at all, you are systematically underpaying certain groups that are equally qualified and equally productive, you are legally liable and the onus is on you to fix it.

I think that if the person is not asking for more money company has a right to not give him more. Isn't that how capitalism works?

Paying 2 different groups of people that are equally qualified is called illegal discrimination. It doesn't matter what the reason is for the discriminatory pay difference.

It doesn't matter if it is capitalistic to illegal discriminate against certain groups.

So no, they do not have that right, if the result is an illegal pay disparity. The company would be required to correct the pay disparity, even if the reason why the pay disparity exists is solely because 1 group didn't ask for more money.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#292

Post by snovv_crash »

ubernostrum wrote: post #290
snovv_crash wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm currently trying to hire multiple C++ engineers. We have a quick, simple automated test that we use as a pre-screen, and so far no women have managed to pass this test. Not that I'm actually surprised; the ratio of applicants is also biased about 50:1, and we haven't had 50 people pass the automated test yet.

You know the old saying (insert your favorite stronger word) about "if you meet a (not-nice person), then you met a (not-nice person); if you run into (not-nice people) all day long, you might be the (not-nice person)"? This is how I feel about people who tell me how stupendously low the pass rates of their interviews are.

The other possibility is that the good people already have jobs, and it is the ones who aren't good who repeatedly apply for positions.

Also, we already had everyone on the team go through the test. I went through it myself before seeing the questions, and then tweaked it afterwards removing things I thought weren't going to give a good enough signal to noise ratio. It's not like we're pulling up the ladder behind us or something. Maybe we have high standards, but I've worked on teams before where hiring was less strict and there are people capable of getting negative work done. I'm not going to risk having these people on my team, even if it artificially bumps up my hiring numbers.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#293

Post by ubernostrum »

snovv_crash wrote: post #292
ubernostrum wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know the old saying (insert your favorite stronger word) about "if you meet a (not-nice person), then you met a (not-nice person); if you run into (not-nice people) all day long, you might be the (not-nice person)"? This is how I feel about people who tell me how stupendously low the pass rates of their interviews are.

The other possibility is that the good people already have jobs, and it is the ones who aren't good who repeatedly apply for positions. Also, we already had everyone on the team go through the test. I went through it myself before seeing the questions, and then tweaked it afterwards removing things I thought weren't going to give a good enough signal to noise ratio. It's not like we're pulling up the ladder behind us…

I'm going to point you to these:

https://danluu.com/hiring-lemons/

https://danluu.com/programmer-moneyball/

Which you should read, along with the multiple other things linked from them about interviewing and hiring.

I can make a very similar argument from long experience, but Dan is more HN-trendy and thus more likely to be believed.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#294

Post by Chris2048 »

spaceseaman wrote: post #277
Chris2048 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I have noticed it on HackerNews, Reddit, and pretty much every video game I've ever played what do you mean? > My coworker had this anime poster And that's "culture"? > because they can never truly "fit in" with the guys. Your examples don't really back up this point.

A) Women are overly criticized when they're doing anything that's a male-dominant activity. Videogames, Reddit, and HackerNews all have examples of this. Announce you're a woman, and you'll suddenly face more scrutiny for unknown reasons. B) Yes. As it turns out, the behaviors we normalize in the workplace (like putting up scantily clad women) are part of a workplace culture. They feel unwelcome, different, and unfai…

> How do my examples not back up this point?

You give an example of one guy with a posted, and one manager, and then conclude "culture" in general, and that they can "never truly fit in with the guys"; But why is this the case with the anime poster guy? How does the managers treatment of the employee relate to their relationship with the other guys on the team?

> the behaviors we normalize

This is along the lines of the "role model" argument; all must conform to prescribed behavior lest a slippery-slope epidemic of deviance should arise. Do all the cubicles have scantily clad women?

> Videogames, Reddit, and HackerNews all have examples of this

The first two are verymuchnot the workplace. Reddit has many different cultures, depending on which subreddit you are in.

You list HN too (which is maybe a little closer to the workplace), as in "Women are overly criticized on HN when they're doing anything that's a male-dominant activity" - I'm not sure I agree, can you give an example?

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#295

Post by snovv_crash »

ubernostrum wrote: post #293
snovv_crash wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other possibility is that the good people already have jobs, and it is the ones who aren't good who repeatedly apply for positions. Also, we already had everyone on the team go through the test. I went through it myself before seeing the questions, and then tweaked it afterwards removing things I thought weren't going to give a good enough signal to noise ratio. It's not like we're pulling up the ladder behind us…

I'm going to point you to these: https://danluu.com/hiring-lemons/ https://danluu.com/programmer-moneyball/ Which you should read, along with the multiple other things linked from them about interviewing and hiring. I can make a very similar argument from long experience, but Dan is more HN-trendy and thus more likely to be believed.

I'd already read both of those, and yes I take chances on people who are smart but don't fit the mold, so to speak. I've hired straight grads from performance arts universities, and I've hired people with 15 years of industry experience who are changing from a related field. So please take your condescending preconceptions elsewhere; the only thing I care about is whether they can do the job, and if they will be pleasant to work with.

Unless you've been exposed to the raw resume data that gets sent, you have no idea what I'm dealing with, and how unqualified the majority of applicants are. I'm an engineer myself, from an unknown university, in a foreign country. My degree isn't even in CS, and I had better problem solving / coding skills straight out of high school than the majority of the applicants.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#296

Post by ubernostrum »

snovv_crash wrote: post #295
ubernostrum wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to point you to these: https://danluu.com/hiring-lemons/ https://danluu.com/programmer-moneyball/ Which you should read, along with the multiple other things linked from them about interviewing and hiring. I can make a very similar argument from long experience, but Dan is more HN-trendy and thus more likely to be believed.

I'd already read both of those, and yes I take chances on people who are smart but don't fit the mold, so to speak. I've hired straight grads from performance arts universities, and I've hired people with 15 years of industry experience who are changing from a related field. So please take your condescending preconceptions elsewhere; the only thing I care about is whether they can do the job, and if they will be plea…

I've run plenty of interviews, thanks. And as a result I've developed some strong opinions on what's wrong with them, and it's not that some monstrous fraction of people are completely unable to code or solve problems.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#297

Post by RepressedEmu »

bandrami wrote: post #274
RepressedEmu wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does all this "equalizing" money come from? Does it just pop into existence because you want it to?

Yes, in fact, for some value of "you" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

You can't create the amount of money you are talking about without severe economic consequences. That should be obvious.
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