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Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#291

Post by supremesaboteur »

ajnin wrote: post #284
supremesaboteur wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. Slavery requires lack of consent. If you were taken by force and sold to a master who is entitled to your labour by law, that is an oppressive situation to be in and it must be abolished. This is not the same thing as someone voluntarily exchanging their brains or brawns for a limited period of time for money. > An extreme example of this logic utterly failing is in those developing nations with sweatshops…

> If your choices are : 1. Starve to death 2. Work in a sweatshop Then it's not a choice. Therefore there can be no consent, you are not made to work by force but by threat of starvation or homelessness, it is an oppressive situation even if these people don't have literal chains at their feet.

If the employer created a famine to help recruit cheap labour, I agree, there is no consent

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#292

Post by StavrosK »

ue_ wrote: post #178
StavrosK wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the difference? The difference is that you didn't spend lots of money researching a better type of floor-laying and then have the flooring company come in to lay the hardwood according to your specs. If you had, you might want to protect that secret.

Then they should protect that with non-disclosure agreements, or realise that they can't survive as a business (or don't want to) without restricting the freedom of the workers to do what they want to outside of the time paid to the employee in the form of wage. I have little or no sympathy for businesses which insist on restricting freedom outside of those hours for which it pays me wage.

I agree, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#293

Post by ryandrake »

etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Neat, but in practice it doesn't work. In my ~20 years experience, I've found that while things like salary and vacation are negotiable, the terms in tech employment contracts are not negotiable.

I've tried that cute "strike out the stuff in your employment agreement that you don't agree to" move, and in ALL cases, received a stern note from the corporate legal department a few days later basically saying "Sign it unmodified or GTFO." I don't know who all you Captains Of Industry are who have the power to negotiate these things, but I've found employees basically have no ability to change them.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#294

Post by ue_ »

supremesaboteur wrote: post #291
ajnin wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your choices are : 1. Starve to death 2. Work in a sweatshop Then it's not a choice. Therefore there can be no consent, you are not made to work by force but by threat of starvation or homelessness, it is an oppressive situation even if these people don't have literal chains at their feet.

If the employer created a famine to help recruit cheap labour, I agree, there is no consent

Why is whether the employer created it or not relevant? What matters is the fact that the employee is forced to work, or to starve. In the times of widespread slavery, a slave owner didn't create the system of slavery, yet nobody would disagree that the slave owner is exploiting the slave, for the slave has no choice but to be a slave, either to this particular owner or to any other owner.

It is not a consensual relationship, and at the very least it is exploitative, just as a prostitute who must sell herself on the street to make ends meet is being exploited - not by any particular person, but by the system perpetuated by the individuals who force her to sell herself in this way. When the only alternative is starving, I'm afraid to say that it's not consent when someone agrees not to starve.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#295

Post by aquadrop »

mikeash wrote: post #163
tensor wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly I find working for a direct competitor in your off hours to be highly unethical and have no issues with employers trying to ban it in the contract. You're no more entitled to do whatever you want than you are to be employed. It's fair for you to want to work for direct competitors, and it's also fair for employers not to hire you if this is your demand.

What's wrong with it exactly? If I hired a flooring company to lay down some hardwood, I'm not going to tell them "now, don't go doing flooring for my competition for the duration of this job." What's the difference? You're right that it's fair for employers not to hire me if this is my demand. I never meant to imply otherwise. Employers can require all sorts of terrible things. Our recourse is mostly to either negot…

Would you hire a lawyer who says "I'm working working for you for those hours you pay me, in my other time I'm working for the guy you're suing"?

The problem is conflict of interest, I think working for direct competitor is very unethical (of course direct competitor is sometimes vague term, but that's another discussion).

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#296

Post by steelframe »

postfacto wrote: post #78

If you're going to violate a noncompete, don't tell anyone you're going to work for a competitor. Keep yourself as small of a target as possible for your former competitor's legal team. - When you quit, tell your now former employer that you're quitting to pursue something other than what was your established industry. Your (made up) lifelong dream of starting your own microbrew brand, Macrome supply business, winery…

In my area and my industry, that would be impossible for me. Several people at my new employer would immediately recognize me and talk with several people at my former employer.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#297

Post by paulddraper »

ryandrake wrote: post #293
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Neat, but in practice it doesn't work. In my ~20 years experience, I've found that while things like salary and vacation are negotiable, the terms in tech employment contracts are not negotiable. I've tried that cute "strike out the stuff in your employment agreement that you don't agree to" move, and in ALL cases, received a stern note from the corporate legal department a few days later basically saying "Sign it un…

Yes. While the engineering manager might desperately want you, legal/HR couldn't care less.

You can negotiate successfully with the former, but not the latter.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#298

Post by saganus »

_n_b_ wrote: post #250
saganus wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Do you have a link for this? This sounds very interesting and sort of funny. Not really sure how it works on other presidential houses, but still sounds amusing since it will probably require rules and guidelines on what exactly to deduct from the president's paycheck, no? What if the president invites someone over, in a sort-of-unofficial way but not really, do you get deducted as well? or maybe not because…

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/10/politics/presidential-debt/ I read about this in a book called The Residence: Inside the Private World of the White House , which was decently interesting.

Thanks!

Like I said, it does sound reasonable but apparently it does add up. From the link:

"[Laura] Bush wrote that a bill came monthly, itemizing everything she and her family owed, including food, dry cleaning and hourly wages for waiters and cleanup crews at private parties."

"There were some costs that I was not prepared for," Bush wrote. "I was amazed by the sheer number of designer clothes that I was expected to buy, like the women before me, to meet the expectations for a first lady."

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#299

Post by ryandrake »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #177
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

You are correct. And naive. Most people (and also myself, for most of my career) are very weak when confronted with these things. The world doesn't work the way you describe it. Imagine you are getting your dream job at Amazon.com and someone is telling you to negotiate or discuss this part. Large companies are much less willing to accept anything like this. However, in your defense, I am pretty sure that negotiating…

Most companies are indeed not willing to discuss these things. If your stance is "be able to negotiate these standard contracts or walk away" you will be doing a lot of walking away.

In a world where employees have even an ounce of power, this might change, but we don't live in that world. Even in the software world, what new hire has any power whatsoever to negotiate their employment agreement? You're at your weakest: You have no track record yet at the company, few to no allies, and there is a line of other applicants out the door who would be thrilled to have your job offer. From the company's point of view, why should they bother with you if you're already being difficult?

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#300

Post by Confusion »

ryandrake wrote: post #293
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Neat, but in practice it doesn't work. In my ~20 years experience, I've found that while things like salary and vacation are negotiable, the terms in tech employment contracts are not negotiable. I've tried that cute "strike out the stuff in your employment agreement that you don't agree to" move, and in ALL cases, received a stern note from the corporate legal department a few days later basically saying "Sign it un…

Corporate legal departements try to pull the same thing with B2B contracts, but in our experience almost anything can be changed if you stand your ground.
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