India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste • Hacker News Board

Re: India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste

#291

Post by alikoneko » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

Kluny wrote: post #252

babyrainbow wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. "Educated" people don't shit where they drink from. But they do much worse. Things like dumping toxic industrial waste that can make a whole region of people chronically ill to a river..Or drive machines that spew toxic gases literally to the face of fellow human beings.. I mean, is anyone really any better?

I honestly don't think education is the point here. _Dogs_ don't shit where they eat. Pet rats can be persuaded to poop in their cages and not on your couch. There's some kind of pressure happening here that the researchers failed to notice. Maybe leaving the village is unsafe - girls can't walk 50m downstream to a designated toilet because they'll be attacked and raped along the way. Maybe there are tigers. Maybe a…

My rats were litter trained actually. It took literally 1 day. During free-roaming time, I would just open the cage and put a ladder up to the bottom floor of the cage. They'd return home when they had to poop or pee.

However, pet rats might not be a good example here. This might be anecdata, but my girls would eat, shit, and sleep in the litter box. I had to buy grated ferret litter boxes to keep one from getting sick. She got E.Coli from sleeping in the litter box, and it presented as a URI. Talking with other rat owners, this wasn't uncommon behavior either.

Re: India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste

#292

Post by Daishiman » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 6:38 PM UTC

capex wrote: post #250

thevardanian wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that maybe necessarily the case as these very people will boil milk before drinking it. It is basic practice in rural India to boil milk before consuming it even if it was straight from the cow. So I find it extremely odd that these very people couldn't connect the dots and make the same leap onto impurity of water.

There is a cultural/ religious myth in the sub-continent that fresh, fast-flowing water is always safe to drink. This might have contributed to the failure of this leap.

Before the massive overpopulation of the continent this was very likely true for all practical effects.

Re: India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste

#293

Post by sidlls » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #284

thevardanian wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have Indians invent small-pox vaccination techniques which clearly shows, at least to some level, an understanding and acceptance of the idea of "germs" albeit something more basic. Furthermore trying to tie everything to caste related issues will cause more harm than good, as it is popular and easy to blame a simple demon the truth is often more nuanced.

> Furthermore trying to tie everything to caste related issues will cause more harm than good, as it is popular and easy to blame a simple demon the truth is often more nuanced. How true that is, and I agonized over how to word the end of my comment to avoid overstating/ misstating / offending / hitting peoples' hot buttons (pro or con). However I think there's an essential truth somewhere in there, and I chose the w…

That wasn't my note you were responding to, in that case. In fact it was the exact opposite in meaning to what you suggest.

Re: India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste

#294

Post by srean » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 7:46 PM UTC

staticassertion wrote: post #40

avar wrote: post #16

> Unfortunately, in many places, it’s not > feasible to lay down sewer pipes or build > treatment facilities. [...] But giving > people access to toilets isn’t enough. You > also have to persuade them to use the > toilets. I can't find it now, but there was a news video making the rounds a year or two ago that showed that this problem is much more fundamental than that. It showed a Indians in a tiny village who were…

The first or second chapter of Diffusion of Innovation covers a case where a health organization official tried to convince people to boil their water. No one did it. The concept of "germs" was so foreign to them, and their beliefs about water were already so ingrained. It was a complete failure. It seems obvious to say "if you drink dirty water you will get sick" but you're assuming that people can make so many conn…

You have indeed hit upon a good point.

I am reading many of the comments here with a lot amusement. Perfect marriages between the clueless and the patronizing. So many efforts have come and gone: (i)hey you 3rd world person here take this money build a proper toilet, (ii) hey Indian govt here's some aid for toilet for your people, (iii) hey my brother we built these toilets for you, now use them, (iv) govt gave us money to built them so we did it for you... and on and on in so many variations.

There is a strong urge to believe in the narrative: oh the poor souls if only they had access to the toilets that they have yearned for things would be all right. Lets build them for them, lets raise money etc. Yes its true for many people, but it is also very untrue for many.

Just as the a one size cancer cure is silly notion (because cancer is not a single thing) there is no such easy one dimensional cure here either. There is a lot of understanding that needs to take place before this is solved.

Some people break open toilets constructed for free, by the govt or a charity, in their house and sell of the bricks. Why ? because they think a toilet in the house makes it impure and dirty. No worries about that tied cow that shits with gay abandon inside that very house, that is clean holy godmother. Heck the current govt is getting social security cards for cows (I am not kidding). Some will fight tooth and nail for their habit of defecating in the open. They don't see a problem with that. Disease ? what disease, that's just bad karma.

Political parties play into this as well. Right now one party is big into "swachchh(clean) Bharat". A move sorely needed and something I strongly support. But when this same party was not in power, they were big into propaganda: toilets are a 'foreign influence', a 'theft of tradition'. Open defecation has been how it has been done and god almighty in the name of tradition and patriotism that's how it would be. Break free from your toilets if you are a patriot ... etc etc. resist rule by the Italian.

Re: India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste

#295

Post by Kalium » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 9:39 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #263

abandonliberty wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an area for innovation. Managing change/altering beliefs are extremely difficult. To help iron deficiency in Cambodians, they were encouraged to cook with iron ingots. No one used them. So they shaped the ingot into a lotus flower. Dice. Cultural investigation showed that fish were symbols of luck, health, and happiness. Fish-shaped ingots worked out! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_iron_fish

Rory Sutherland often makes the point that advertising agencies are uniquely equipped to solve many complex social problems. They are, by some considerable margin, the best in the world at persuasion and behavioural change. The minds that persuaded a billion people to smoke cigarettes are well equipped to persuade people to dig proper latrines and wash their hands. The medical and logistical response to the recent eb…

It's possible that the need is less unrecognized and more actively resisted. Donors who want to address disease in some tropical locale may not want to see their donations directed into ad campaigns instead of tangibles.

I think it has to be pitched as "outreach".

Re: India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste

#296

Post by graycat » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 1:08 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #274

graycat wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not much higher without some significant changes. But the main idea of a septic tank is to have the bacteria eat everything objectionable, give off CO2 and methane, leave a little sludge (after 20+ years, I've never had the septic tank cleaned), and those are also the main ideas for sewage treatment if have big sewer pipes, bring all that stuff to a central location, and treat it there. As far as I can tell,…

> But the main idea of a septic tank is to have the bacteria eat everything objectionable, [...] Isn't that the main idea behind wastewater treatment everywhere anyway already? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewage_treatment and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastewater_treatment Also compare Tree bogs ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_bog ) which is about not mixing water and human waste in the first place. Hum…

> Isn't that the main idea behind wastewater treatment everywhere anyway already?

Sure. And on this point I wrote:

> Even with the population density of NYC, in the end the crucial step is some bacteria eating the rest just as in my septic tank.

Re: India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste

#297

Post by graycat » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 1:33 AM UTC

nvarsj wrote: post #246

graycat wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't need much in the way of sewer pipes. I live in the US, in NY, 70 miles north of Wall Street, in a house with two bathtubs, four sinks, three toilets, one washing machine, and one dish washer, with nearly no use of "sewer pipes". Right, no city sewer. Instead there is some PVC pipe, cheap, super simple to work with, darned rugged, and, presto, bingo, a big concrete box in the ground just behind the main piece of…

You realise the population of India is 1.3 billion? In a land mass that is 1/3rd the size of the United States. So while it's pretty cool what you've done, septic systems are never going to be practical for India's needs.

Let's see:

There are 640 acres per square mile. In the 25 or so square miles around where I live, there are maybe 4 people per house with one house per acre for

     4 * 640 = 2,560

people per square mile.

The land area of the US is about 3.797 million square miles. Since the land area of India is 1/3rd of that, the land area of India is about

     3.797/3 = 1.266

million square miles.

Since the population of India is 1.3 billion people, the population density in India is about

  1.3 * 10**9 /
  (1.266 * 10**6)
  = 1,027

persons per square mile.

That would be the population density everywhere in India if the density were uniform. In that case, septic tanks would work for all of India much like they work for all the people within a few miles of me.

But likely the population density of India is not uniform which means that some areas of India have population density less than

     1,027

persons per square mile, and in those areas, and likely more up to a density of about

persons per square mile, again septic tanks and drain fields should work well.

For people in India who walk out at night to use the woods as a toilet, as in the OP, then if only from the woods there should be land area for those people to use septic tanks.

I'm not suggesting septic tanks for Mumbai or New York City.

Hmm .... On second thought, given my view of New York City, maybe I'd like to see everyone there using septic tanks, especially all using the same tank, a small one!

Naw, then too many of them would want to live in my neighborhood -- no thanks; I like my current neighbors!

Re: India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste

#298

Post by droopyEyelids » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 5:37 AM UTC

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #234

droopyEyelids wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't reliably tell the difference between human and other omnivore feces, and there are always going to be coyotes pooping wherever they please. Gotta accept a bit of poop in your life.

There's not a lot of coyotes in downtown SF...

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-coyote-f...

> Record numbers of coyotes have moved into the city in recent years.

Re: India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste

#299

Post by jsudhams » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 5:58 AM UTC

I have had and have two issues in my village especially for poor.

1. Keeping the toilet in home, this is no issue(99% of my village is fine with it)but having exhaust and running it is still an issue 2. Running water with pipe , if you ask a must if you need good toilet. A big issue for 6 months in our village so able people built storage tank , pump up water when water comes in pipe from village tank but for the ones who keep in vessels , it is big issue 3. Space for septic tank, in many plots house is built on full land available to them so no more space for septic tank 4. Last but not least, if you have issue septic there is not a possibility to clean like in city using that special lorry that come with pump and tank

If govt can do something about 2/3/4 then it is possible to have more toilets.

Re: India Is Winning Its War on Human Waste

#300

Post by tripzilch » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:12 PM UTC

staticassertion wrote: post #93

bhargav wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. Though that as a kid, I was educated as to what happens when you drink unclean water or food made at the road side. There were a lot of educational shows that aired on a channel named Doordarshan. That channel was free and you were able to watch it even without having a cable connection. The educational/scientific shows aired around 10 AM to 12 PM the time after which most kids started school. S…

> Even someone who is uneducated or does not know of scientific method will reason with what they see themselves. This is really the subject of the entire book - it's not this simple. There are many factors that are involved in someone accepting a truth that goes against what they already know.

Maybe it's easier for people (here) to understand to consider that it goes the other way just as well. Being educated on ways that food/drink can be contaminated also results in certain people getting truly physically nauseous if they consume food or drink that they believe could have been potentially contaminated. You probably know some people like this.

"mmm these pineapple chunks for the fridge taste tingly and slightly alcoholic, did you marinate them in sparkling booze or such?"

"probably just fermented a bit, they're five days old"

"hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk"

There's much more situations like this, food that fell on the ground, or un(der)cooked meat. People that have a firm basic understanding of how germs work, have some pretty irrational beliefs their ability to teleport to the insides of uncut raw-but-seared-on-the-outside muscle tissue. And many will remain queesy about it, even if you teach them.

My point is, you can lead a horse to water but you can't teach it to fish if it wants to keep warm for the rest of its life.