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Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

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Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#291

Post by nabla9 »

lostlogin wrote: post #259
nabla9 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the first quote was good and reasonable view. Rest were just tough talk.

What happens if you apply this logic to others? The Philippines right now for example - that tough talk escalated. Or any of the historical examples available. Assuming someone won't do what they say they will do is not a good way to elect a leader.

It's sound logic, so it's universal.

Going to war should not be based on hate. It should be as rational process as possible.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#292

Post by dragonwriter »

nabla9 wrote: post #291
lostlogin wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if you apply this logic to others? The Philippines right now for example - that tough talk escalated. Or any of the historical examples available. Assuming someone won't do what they say they will do is not a good way to elect a leader.

It's sound logic, so it's universal. Going to war should not be based on hate. It should be as rational process as possible.

If hate is a real factor in an actor's utility function, then decisions based on hate are rational while decisions ignoring it are not.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#293

Post by yincrash »

johndunne wrote: post #10

With today's political climate I can't help but think that something like this could happen again.

OT: I believe my reply was modded for the same reason https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13139991 was flagged?

However, I provided citations (which I thought made the bar for substantiveness) and believed I was civil. Was I inciting flames by backing up the parent's comment?

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#294

Post by turar »

mikeash wrote: post #232
ebiester wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the Armenian genocide worse than the Trail of Tears, for example? (I'm not trying to discredit or diminish the Armenian genocide here, mind you, but rather point out we still have someone who committed genocide by the same terms on American money.)

I think most Americans will, at this point, agree that the Trail of Tears was terrible. The National Park Service has an official historic trail covering the route, with many exhibits describing the terrible suffering. Turkey, on the other hand, still tries to pretend that the Armenian Genocide did not happen, even prosecuting people who say it did. We are by no means perfect, but I think nations which are able to ac…

> We are by no means perfect, but I think nations which are able to acknowledge and learn from the mistakes of their past have a leg up on those that try to pretend everything was great.

The United States government has never acknowledged Native American genocide either.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#295

Post by lomnakkus »

hkt wrote: post #228
RobertoG wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I must be missing something, but China is actually doing "bad things" now. The Japanese internment happened ~75 years ago. I like to think that the "West" has progressed since then." Well, I suppose you are missing all what happened after September 11 2001, including Guantanamo bay detention camp ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp ).

Don't forget the detention centers for "migrants" (often people fleeing war) and the fact that the UK has now legalised a surveillance state that the stasi would have had erotic dreams about.

You both (parent + grand-parent poster) make good points.

I find it mildly interesting that you both should mention the two somewhat incestuous partners, the US and the UK. (I don't live in either, so I may be somewhat insulated from these things and it's pretty easy to forget this stuff when it's not part of your daily life.)

I'm not going to argue that the Guantanamo situation is in any way a good thing, but at least it's not affecting a billion+ people every day. Obviously it's affecting several thousand people (and their relatives) way worse (individually) than the billion+ people are being affected in China.

Regarding the UK: Yes, it's terrible, but then again the UK population hasn't really experienced any real strife wrt. the powers wielded by its state... yet. That is, the populace at large probably haven't had any hands-on experience of just how badly things can go (Stasi, FSB, etc.). I truly hope it doesn't come to a 1984-type situation in the UK. At least it doesn't exist right now (cf. China). (EDIT: I would say that, post-Snowden, anyone who didn't believe that every nation on earth was spying on their own citizens in whatever way they could was probably being naive... but there are a great deal of people who have no idea who Snowden is.)

Anyway... these are definitely interesting times.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#296

Post by lomnakkus »

jlillyreed wrote: post #135
lomnakkus wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must be missing something, but China is actually doing "bad things" now. The Japanese internment happened ~75 years ago. I like to think that the "West" has progressed since then. (That's not say that everything's just fine and dandy, but there is a clear difference between the West and, say, China today.)

> I like to think that the "West" has progressed since then. You might like to think so, but you'd be VERY VERY wrong. This year Trump surrogates began justifying their proposal to create a muslim registry by saying that the Japanese Internment gave precedence for their desired actions.

Key word: Proposal

I mean, yes, I agree that we're seeing some extremely worrying signaling from the coming US administration, but it's not actually happening right now... and it would hopefully be struck down by (at least) the Supreme Court. Notwithstanding that, it's extremely worrying that these things are actually popular ideas... which I suppose speaks towards "moral superiority", so point taken.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#297

Post by turar »

gaius wrote: post #288
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“If you [break the law] you are a criminal. How is that controversial?” What is legal is not necessarily moral or ethical.

Sure, but a situation in which every individual picks and chooses the laws they agree with doesn't scale.

I wonder what America would have been like if slavery abolitionists, women's suffrage leaders, and Civil Rights leaders took your advice.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#298

Post by kofejnik »

semiel wrote: post #81
kofejnik wrote: post #12

This was appalling and obviously sucked a lot for people who underwent such treatment; however as someone born in USSR I'd say that it was surprisingly humane (hot water not always available) compared to how people were treated in the USSR around the same period. Case in point: Ukrainian Holodomor (genocide by famine) http://www.rferl.org/a/holodomor-ukraine/25174454.html Edit: also, Chechen and Krimean Tatar deporta…

Since these countries (in some form or other) still exist, it's tempting to start making moral comparisons and trying to figure out "which side you should be on". But that's not the most interesting approach, in my opinion. Future historians won't be picking sides, they'll be trying to put it in context, understand the conditions that led to these behaviors, and draw out trends in the period. I can imagine a section…

Millions of Ukrainians died in the camp and due to artificial famine. How you can compare this to 'hot water is not always available', I can't comprehend.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#299

Post by mikeash »

turar wrote: post #294
mikeash wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most Americans will, at this point, agree that the Trail of Tears was terrible. The National Park Service has an official historic trail covering the route, with many exhibits describing the terrible suffering. Turkey, on the other hand, still tries to pretend that the Armenian Genocide did not happen, even prosecuting people who say it did. We are by no means perfect, but I think nations which are able to ac…

> We are by no means perfect, but I think nations which are able to acknowledge and learn from the mistakes of their past have a leg up on those that try to pretend everything was great. The United States government has never acknowledged Native American genocide either.

They clearly have to some extent. That's why I mentioned the National Park Service trail. More would be better, for sure, but we don't deny it, nor prosecute people who say it happened.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#300

Post by wehadfun »

munificent wrote: post #286
wehadfun wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I think its more like finding everyone with the same gang symbols and running them over. I know we should say that Japanese Americans and Regular Americans are the same that is true for most circumstances but I think that Japanese Americans have a stronger tie to Japan than a non Japanese American has to the 4 or 5 European countries that their ancestors are from. I'm not saying the rational for locking up Japanes…

Are you honestly trying to equate deliberately choosing to wear a gang sign with the nationality of your ancestors which you have no control over ? Of the Japanese interned by these camps, the majority were United States citizens born in the United States . > I understand why it happened and the reasons, in my opinion, were not evil or selfish. The official stance of the US government itself after investigating the c…

Not at all.

I'm trying to say that interning Japanese Americans after entering a war with Japan is closer to punishing a dangerous persons friends then punishing random people that happen to have some unrelated thing in common with the person.

Assume a kids parents are Boston sports fans but moved to Los Angeles and the kid was born in LA. Kid grow up surrounded by Celtics, Patriots, and Red Sox paraphernalia. Kid live in a part of LA that is 99% people from Boston. All kids neighboorhood friends are Boston sports fans. Kid goes to school with L.A. sports fans but they ridicule kid because he is a Boston sports fan. When the Dodgers play Red Sox who is this kid rooting for.

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