In Greece, Property Is Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#291

Post by aluhut » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 8:35 AM UTC

hx87 wrote: post #263

aluhut wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many uncertainties. Like the one regarding the fact that you can get an absolution from the ECB if you cause enough havoc. Or the one where you shouldn't invest in any country that may even smell slightly endangered (which would actually cause that north/south europe contruct). On the other hand it may even lure in even more "evil" investments with the right insurance. All this with a fast devaluating Euro?…

I'm not sure how redistribution of wealth in case of a financial crisis counts as "absolution" from the ECB--if your 1000 person firm causes a 5000 Euro per capita loss in the money supply, your company is busted and everyone there ends up with 5 million Euros combined, which is small money by finance company/bank standards. It's not that much of a change from existing practice--all central banks defend their money s…

It's not redistribution of wealth when with every Euro you print, the currency gets further devaluated. This wouldn't happen. Ever. They'd rather separate it in North and Sourth Euro before somebody would even seriously think about that for a second.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#292

Post by arethuza » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 9:41 AM UTC

fred_is_fred wrote: post #288

arethuza wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our parents and our politicians" And Goldman Sachs as well! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-cr...

Greece knew full well what they hired Goldman to do. You can't absolve them of that.

Hence the "and" - all partners in crime as far as I am concerned.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#293

Post by branchless » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 2:40 PM UTC

kkapelon wrote: post #154

branchless wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah won't anyone think of the unskilled person who inherited money and wants to continue to live well? Let this guy stay on this land and make the people who worked hard pay!

If you think that you live well with 400 euros a month, then I rest my case.

Why should he occupy land he didn't work for whilst others with better jobs miss out?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#294

Post by hx87 » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

aluhut wrote: post #291

hx87 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how redistribution of wealth in case of a financial crisis counts as "absolution" from the ECB--if your 1000 person firm causes a 5000 Euro per capita loss in the money supply, your company is busted and everyone there ends up with 5 million Euros combined, which is small money by finance company/bank standards. It's not that much of a change from existing practice--all central banks defend their money s…

It's not redistribution of wealth when with every Euro you print, the currency gets further devaluated. This wouldn't happen. Ever. They'd rather separate it in North and Sourth Euro before somebody would even seriously think about that for a second.

The currency doesn't get devaluated in this case because the supply of Euros doesn't increase--the ECB is only replacing the money supply lost when the banks collapse.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#295

Post by mfukar » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 3:41 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #164

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total outsider and novice here, but from what you're describing, it seems that Greece has to leave the Euro and default on its debts. If people are electing leaders who have no control over finances, there's no democracy at work. Horrible thing to have happen in the birthplace of democracy. The EU was sort of a beta version of a United Europe. They weren't as luck as the U.S., where a highly educated but small group…

> Greece has to leave the Euro and default on its debts. pretty much > architecture astronaut syndrome Not really. It started well. The Euro currency was the great achilles heel, as it meant there MUST be fiscal harmonisation between countries that were arguing over the amount of meat in a sausage. That said the more I learn about USA and the states, especially the southern states, the more I realise we need things l…

It seems kind of weird to me that you agree than a common currency without a political union is doomed, then go on to support a political schism.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#296

Post by hx87 » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 3:41 PM UTC

thght wrote: post #274

hx87 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Price controls are a terrible solution except in special and temporally limited circumstances, e.g. total war. Much better to make construction as easy and cheap as possible, i.e. no quantitative limits on it. > This is also why basic income could never work in practice, as the house prices keep increasing you'd also need to increase the basic income. And where goes the money? Indeed, to the rich property owners.. If…

> Price controls are a terrible solution I never mentioned price controls in general. In Auckland, New Zealand, investors are buying property and houses en masse. They blow up the market price for profit. In the news you can read that most people born now in New Zealand will likely never be able to buy a house in their lives, and this is a very hot issue there right now. It has never been this bad and it only gets wo…

> In Auckland, New Zealand, investors are buying property and houses en masse.

That isn't exactly a bad problem to have--if free construction is allowed and property taxes (or better yet, land value taxes) aren't constrained, it would be fairly straightforward to fund a significant portion of the governments' budgets, plus a basic income or rent subsidy, by a taxing foreign investors.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#297

Post by Kalium » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

vondur wrote: post #276

Kalium wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3) I am 75 years old living with my wife who is 70 years old in the house that we bought in 1950. We are both retired farmers. Our pension is 500 euros in total. In 1950 the area we selected for our house turned out to be a popular one (in 1950 it was just an empty field). This was regarded as a major incipient problem in California at once point. So a policy to address it was put in place - Proposition 13. It caps…

I think one big issue with Prop 13 was having it apply to business property, which makes no sense to me. How did they push that proposition to people with that? I can sympathize with the elderly being taxed out of their housing, but businesses? Not so much...

It turns out that if you ramble on enough about Grandma Multi-Millionaire-Moneybags enough, nobody stops to think about businesses.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#298

Post by 1337biz » Fri, Nov 04, 2016, 12:40 AM UTC

muse900 wrote: post #269

1337biz wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious - why do they hold on to those flats if they don't rent them out?

because the flats value is 30% of what it was in 2008, while we know that 2008 and before is not coming back, they are located in Central Athens and no matter what happens in lets say 50 years from now their value might be up to what it was before. Also don't forget the sentimental value as well, my dad bought 1 of the flats himself with his hard earning while he survived the invasion of Cyprus and lost everything th…

Totally understanding that. My parents are too holding on to some real esatate mostly for emotional value. But renting them out should be an option to generate cashflow?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#299

Post by aluhut » Fri, Nov 04, 2016, 10:44 AM UTC

hx87 wrote: post #294

aluhut wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not redistribution of wealth when with every Euro you print, the currency gets further devaluated. This wouldn't happen. Ever. They'd rather separate it in North and Sourth Euro before somebody would even seriously think about that for a second.

The currency doesn't get devaluated in this case because the supply of Euros doesn't increase--the ECB is only replacing the money supply lost when the banks collapse.

But the supply is not "lost". It did not disappear in space.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#300

Post by Bartweiss » Fri, Nov 04, 2016, 2:23 PM UTC

honkhonkpants wrote: post #234

Bartweiss wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer to your first question is "if you put it up at public auction tomorrow, that would be totally illegal." There are huge legal barriers to property sales, including requirements for energy audits and certification that the construction is wholly legal - which is probably isn't. Just like in the US, a great many safe and livable Greek properties violate zoning laws. Real assets are salable, but in thi…

Zoning laws in the US don't govern anything other than the initial certificate of occupancy in most US states. They are irrelevant for subsequent sales.

Yes, that was my point but I think I was unclear.

Like the US, Greece has many properties which would be illegal to build from scratch under existing zoning laws. Unlike the US, Greece has pushed a law requiring that all properties be certified as "having no illegal constructions" prior to sale.

I'm trying to imagine the crisis you would get if you enforced zoning laws against secondary sales in the US. At the very least, all of Boston would be uninhabitable.