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George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

electrek.co

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Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#291

Post by throwaway4job »

Analemma_ wrote: post #16

He's currently throwing a temper tantrum on Twitter, and all because the NHTSA wanted to ask him a few questions about the product (you can see it here: https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special... ). Like, how dare the government try to have basic standards for multi-ton hunks of metal hurtling down the highway without human input. I've been trying to convince people lately that Silicon Valley isn…

My theory, based on his response, is that:

1) Comma.ai is materially flawed at present; and 2) George Hotz knows about these flaws; and 3) George Hotz is upset because even basic questions will expose the problems in his broken product; and 4) George Hotz is a sociopath who would happily kill people if it'd give him a shot of flipping his company and pocketing an 8 or 9 figure pay day.

There is basically no chance that Comma works. If it did, they would've seen this coming, and handled it in literally _any_ other way.

And the notion of China having less regulation is laughable. Depending on who dies when Comma kills somebody, and the outcry that results, he's likely to end up facing a firing squad.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#292

Post by snotrockets »

jacquesm wrote: post #4
tetrep wrote: post #2

a little more detail from techcrunch: https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/28/comma-ai-cancels-the-comma... It seems that Hotz said, “dealing with regulators and lawyers… isn’t worth it.” Which seems very unfortunate/shortsighted due to how useful this tech could be. Why not hire someone to deal with them for you?

That may be just a fig-leaf to plaster over 'we couldn't do it'. It's one thing to release software, it's quite another thing to release this software and have it tested, audited and certified safe and that's definitely part of the process of delivering software that is critical to the well being of the users and the other people you're sharing the road with. And that second part is part-and-parcel of wanting to oper…

An ex-colleague of mine used to say the difference between a software engineer and a real engineer is that the latter's signature is criminally binding.

We can refuse to be real engineers (it is a great responsibility), but then we should drop the title.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#293

Post by throwaway4job »

fiatpandas wrote: post #288
Analemma_ wrote: post #16

He's currently throwing a temper tantrum on Twitter, and all because the NHTSA wanted to ask him a few questions about the product (you can see it here: https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special... ). Like, how dare the government try to have basic standards for multi-ton hunks of metal hurtling down the highway without human input. I've been trying to convince people lately that Silicon Valley isn…

That letter was an easy out for him. When you boast about your tech and it doesn't deliver on the promise (and don't forget the Musk challenge), it looks much better if your exit is caused by government interference than if you were to quit on your own. It's kind of less of a failure. Granted, it's a huge stretch for him based on the language of the letter, but that's how I read the situation.

100%. If comma.ai truly worked, he wouldn't have this response.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#294

Post by kefka »

smallnamespace wrote: post #281
kefka wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Product" ? I'm seeing a demo he wasn't selling. And when a big govt stick comes a'knocking, unless you're also big and well connected, you will get shut down. This was clear as a way to "do insane amount of documentation in a laughably short timeframe, or fuck your business with a fine-stick." Yeah, GeoHotz is an ass, but this is inane. Great way to kill small businesses.

So what would you have the regulator do here--wait until the product is on the market first? He's publicly stated they were aiming for year-end release.

That may be what he stated. I can say that I plan to launch pigs from a catapult tomorrow. Doesn't make it true.

I would understand filing that documentation prior to selling. But I'm also familiar with using "Filing with govt" as a tool of oppression that large companies try to pass as a barrier of market entry. Lawyers are rather expensive, and requiring more volumnous paperwork requires more lawyers.

And speaking of that, what is the repercussions of what you send to NHTSA? Say he sends something inaccurate or glosses over details. What is the liability of sending something wrong to govt? Hmm...

Yes. Wait till he's selling them. And when there's a claim, act on it. Not before.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#296

Post by sedachv »

argonaut wrote: post #245
brianbreslin wrote: post #22

Something seems fishy to me. Cruise which GM bought for $1B a few months back was working on similar tech. Having only raised $3M he could have EASILY sold his tech/team to Chrysler or Ford or Hyundai, or any other car company for $100M and made his investors super happy and himself very rich. So why "quit" when the feds ask you to deal with regulations that involve passenger safety. Its not like he had to spend $20M…

It is not "similar tech" at all. Yes, both approaches involve some machine learning (which is a huge field). But Cruise's approach is similar to Google/Uber's approach in that it relies on LIDAR. I'd assume (but might be wrong) in that it also relies heavily on premapping, as does the Google/Uber approach. Comma's approach was complete end-to-end learning with just a single camera (to give you some context, research…

There are more details in this lecture Hotz gave at Berkeley this September: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxoke1lDJ9w

One of the things that seemed missing from the lecture when I watched it is how data was going to be collected for handling exceptional situations/collision avoidance. Hotz also glossed over the question in this interview from July: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zy_07g2IrM#t=35m

I suspect they ran into trouble with edge cases. Also suspicious is this job posting on their website right now:

"Localization Lead Engineer DESCRIPTION

We have over 50,000 miles of video data from cars, and will have millions by the end of the year. Looking for someone to build a SLAM algorithm capable of scaling to the world.

Imagine an API that, given a picture, returns the exact location of the camera with cm accuracy.

Build this

REQUIREMENTS

    Strong math background.
    Ability to write concise, reliable, and readable code quickly.
    Github with stars is nice.
    Computer vision experience a plus.
Basically someone who could have written https://github.com/mapillary/OpenSfM or https://github.com/raulmur/ORB_SLAM2"

http://www.comma.ai/positions.html

Hotz has been claiming that they would not need mapping and SLAM like Google's self-driving car. The whole "Looking for someone to build a SLAM algorithm capable of scaling to the world" sure sounds like "I guess this time he couldn't find anyone on IRC to finish the hard parts for him and let him take the credit" that lawnchair_larry posted elsewhere in this discussion (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12818219).

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#297

Post by smallnamespace »

kefka wrote: post #294
smallnamespace wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what would you have the regulator do here--wait until the product is on the market first? He's publicly stated they were aiming for year-end release.

That may be what he stated. I can say that I plan to launch pigs from a catapult tomorrow. Doesn't make it true. I would understand filing that documentation prior to selling. But I'm also familiar with using "Filing with govt" as a tool of oppression that large companies try to pass as a barrier of market entry. Lawyers are rather expensive, and requiring more volumnous paperwork requires more lawyers. And speaking…

One problem with that model is that if the product ends up being unsafe and someone dies, it becomes the regulator's fault that they failed to prevent an unsafe product from being marketed and sold in the first place. Heads will roll.

We as a democratic society decided awhile ago that the benefit of knowing a car product was probably safe outweighs the frictional burden of testing them before they can be sold.

There's a lot of insinuation here that the regulator is actively trying to kill his product, but no evidence. This seems like a run-of-the-mill request, one that the NHTSA probably sends out thousands of times a year to various automakers and auto parts suppliers.

As a counterpoint, I'm sure Tesla has gotten these letters as well, but the NHTSA didn't prevent them from putting AutoPilot on the market.

> what is the repercussions of what you send to NHTSA? Say he sends something inaccurate or glosses over details.

The letter specifically says that estimates are ok. There's nothing wrong with telling the regulator 'We're not sure yet, give us a month to figure it out please?'.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#298

Post by maratd »

Animats wrote: post #283
Analemma_ wrote: post #16

He's currently throwing a temper tantrum on Twitter, and all because the NHTSA wanted to ask him a few questions about the product (you can see it here: https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special... ). Like, how dare the government try to have basic standards for multi-ton hunks of metal hurtling down the highway without human input. I've been trying to convince people lately that Silicon Valley isn…

Holtz's Twitter rant is at [1]. Cruise Automation was very lucky to be acquired by GM before they got a similar letter. Similarly, Otto being acquired by Uber. They were both proposing to sell similar add-on systems. Their valuations would have been much lower after receiving such letters. NHTSA has it right. "It is insufficient to assert, as you do, that 'your product does not remove any of the driver responsibiliti…

> Did Tesla got a similar letter?

Did Mercedes? Did Volvo? They have the same systems in place in production vehicles.

Mercedes even advertised their vehicles as autonomous.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/mercedes-benz-pulls-e-class-ad-...

> Here are three dashcam videos of Teslas crashing on autopilot.

Glad you had the opportunity to bash Tesla.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#299

Post by akiselev »

kefka wrote: post #255
scott_s wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see a problem with that. In fact, I want government regulators to do that. He should have anticipated this process, and been working with them since the beginning.

With that kind of talk, only those "well connected" can readily do that. Hmm. Regulatory capture? Yeah. That.

Yes, being "well connected" is critical to working with regulatory agencies. A minimum of 56 kbps is recommended.

Seriously, with agencies like the FAA, FCC, EPA, FDA, NHTSA, etc. you can just call them up and you will be connected to a regulator who can help you with every step of getting your product past regulatory requirements. The Small Business Administration also has a lot of people dedicated to helping entrepreneurs with regulatory oversight.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#300

Post by wyager »

robotresearcher wrote: post #240
wyager wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a joke? If not, you clearly didn't read the letter; it's more than "a little regulation", it's a huge set of requests on an unreasonably short timeline. With regard to the more general point of your post, even if it's nominally possible to eke out a profit under overburdening regulation, you're still allowed to take a principled stand against it.

He chose the launch date without making sure he was legal first.

Do I have to check with every relevant government agency for permission every time I do something? If an endeavor not specifically outlawed, it should be presumed legal.
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