How the Arab World Came Apart • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#291

Post by John23832 » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

tmptmp wrote: post #275

mustaflex wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fortunately they are. This phenomena is just saddening, its the same thing on the other side and dialog become impossible.

>>and dialog become impossible. The dialog becomes impossible because of many other important reasons, too, including, a. the opposition by liberals/leftists/Islamists to bring forward any critical review of some extremely troubling vicious aspects of Islam and Islamic scriptures (Quran and Hadiths) under the phony reasons of islamophobia b. the reluctance of Islamists to accept the notion of freedom of expression ev…

No, comments and thinking like yours are the reason there is no progress.

In conflict between group X and group Y, if you ask X it's because Y does (insert list of offenses here). The same from the opposing side. Nobody wants to acknowledge that both sides have issues, and if they work towards fixing said issues the world will be a better place.

Your whole diatribe about "liberals/leftist/Islamist" is the exact same crap that extremist on the other side preach, just projected through your (the way I view it) conservative lense.

The biggest problem is that nobody is willing to step outside of their comfort zone, to see how the other half lives, in order to move forward. That goes for both the "liberals/leftist/Islamist" left and the "conservative/anti-pc/nobody-deserves-to-be-comfortable-except-me" right

> So the fight must be against Islam and not against all Muslims, per se.

If you understand what Islam is, and what a muslim is, this statement makes no sense.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#292

Post by ilostmykeys » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 6:03 PM UTC

hx87 wrote: post #258

ilostmykeys wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sick to call war "beautiful" especially given that in those first few days innocent people were bombed out of existence along with bridges and infrastructure vital to the subsistence of millions of people. I didn't expect a sick comment to be rewarded on HN. But now I see the blatant and racist hypocrisy.

Something can be aesthetically beautiful and morally terrifying and wrong at the same time. Please disentangle aesthetics and morality, since not doing so tends to debase both.

>

That borders on psychotic. To watch people die and call the destruction aesthetically beautiful is mental illness.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#293

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 6:05 PM UTC

sevenless wrote: post #13

The NYTimes itself is also a considerable part of the reason, considering Judith Miller, Friedman, Krauthammer and many others propagandized hard for invading Iraq.

[deleted]

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#294

Post by musha68k » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 6:06 PM UTC

sevenless wrote: post #13

The NYTimes itself is also a considerable part of the reason, considering Judith Miller, Friedman, Krauthammer and many others propagandized hard for invading Iraq.

I just click for the comments whenever I see a shared NYTimes story on HN, something I deliberately try not to do usually.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#295

Post by whateveracct » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #239

douche wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unpredictable megalomaniac is at heart an isolationist, though. I can't ever recall anyone else in my lifetime expressing the desire to step back from NATO and reduce overseas commitments.

Trump's offer to Kasich (as confirmed by Kasich himself) was that he would be the quote 'most powerful VP in history', in charge of both domestic and foreign policy, while Trump would be in charge of 'making America great again'. So the other poster is exactly right, Trump doesn't have anything at heart beyond self-aggrandizement. http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/07/politics/john-kasich-donald-tr... http://www.slate.com/bl…

If all you care about is foreign policy, maybe Pence is okay with you. The guy is a garbage person though and made me ashamed of my home state on multiple occasions.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#296

Post by hx87 » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

ilostmykeys wrote: post #292

hx87 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something can be aesthetically beautiful and morally terrifying and wrong at the same time. Please disentangle aesthetics and morality, since not doing so tends to debase both.

> That borders on psychotic. To watch people die and call the destruction aesthetically beautiful is mental illness.

Why would it be mental illness? Does it affect my ability to live my life, or anyone else's to live theirs? After all, I make decisions that carry moral weight based on my moral, not aesthetic compass.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#297

Post by hedonistbot » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 6:33 PM UTC

This piece was a huge waste of time. Following the personal stories of a number of individuals in most of the Middle East countries does not give any information to the reader about any of the geopolitics or power plays in the region. It just leaves the reader confused and depressed that nothing can be done and we should probably leave this matters to people more knowledgeable. Is this some new form of journalism. And to see this in a NYT publication...

Also NY Times has so much *to answer for in their coverage of the events that it kind of make sense that they are avoiding any real analysis of the issues.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#298

Post by abalone » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

hacker42 wrote: post #270

ihsw wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling them cultural flaws and saying they need to be addressed is one of the worst first steps you can take, but setting aside that there are already many Muslims integrating into Western society without having directly addressed the those issues. Simply allowing them to participate in Western society is enough to sufficiently "address" those issues, as many will naturally gravitate towards more progressive and lib…

Why not call the flaws what they are? The diffusion of values seems to be a very slow process, if it works at all given the ever growing Muslim population. The percentage of third generation Muslims in Western countries who still don't really oppose ideas of violence and misogyny in the Quran and who would prefer to return to a social order of the lifetime of Muhammed is astonishingly high (~30%), and Muslim fanatics…

And what would be the percentage of Christians in Western countries who don't really oppose ideas of violence[1] and misogyny[2] in the Bible and would prefer to return to a traditional social order?

[1] http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=21

[2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10635510/Women-...

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#299

Post by hedonistbot » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 6:52 PM UTC

hedonistbot wrote: post #297

This piece was a huge waste of time. Following the personal stories of a number of individuals in most of the Middle East countries does not give any information to the reader about any of the geopolitics or power plays in the region. It just leaves the reader confused and depressed that nothing can be done and we should probably leave this matters to people more knowledgeable. Is this some new form of journalism. An…

To expend further - not a single mention of Saudi Arabia as a major actor and sponsor of radical Islam (Wahhabism), Israel is mentioned in passing and Turkey is only mentioned as an emigration destination and a "porous" border, not a major actor with huge interest and ambition in the region. Full disclosure: I stopped reading after part 2 and searched for the relevant actors and that's what I found. Correct me if I've missed some hidden gem of insight from the NYT "journos".

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#300

Post by hedonistbot » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

finid wrote: post #207

Shivetya wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just glad we are finally getting a mainstream press group to admit the Middle East is the fault of European colonialism instead of the last fifteen odd years blaming Bush. It was made a mess before and after WW2 and it never was allowed to self correct. If anything the powers that be kept trying to keep it bottled up until a few set pieces fell and the house came tumbling down. This isn't to say that going into…

> I am just glad we are finally getting a mainstream press group to admit the Middle East is the fault of European colonialism instead of the last fifteen odd years blaming Bush. Even with the fault of European colonialism, they were doing just fine until we decided to get rid of Saddam.

...and bomb *Libya, and fund opposition "moderate" beheaders in Syria, and supporting the military coup in Egypt, and antagonize Turkey and harbor the alleged mastermind of the coup. I'm sure I'm missing a lot more.