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David Cameron announces resignation

theguardian.com

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Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#291

Post by yarrel »

geff82 wrote: post #65
fredley wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theresa May is one of the scariest contenders as far as I've seen. Very pro-surveillance and anti-open internet. She would be a (nother) disaster for UK tech. If there's anybody left who hasn't moved to Dublin/Berlin by October.

The problem we currently have in politics it demography. People get older and older, the baby boomers forgot to "produce" children. Elder people tend to be deeply conservative and anti-technology. And as they are the majority now, they vote for stuff that they think is right ("let's 100% control that freaking thing called internet") and totally strangle the younger generation with their bad taste and shortsightedness…

And that's how Remain lost.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#292

Post by simonswords82 »

creshal wrote: post #30
simonswords82 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been so much scaremongering in the UK press that the markets are now reacting accordingly. Ultimately trade deals are important not just to the UK but to the countries it trades with. People in power will make deals happen because they have to. There's going to be some short term pain - but ultimately everything will balance out.

> Ultimately trade deals are important not just to the UK but to the countries it trades with. People in power will make deals happen because they have to. It's wishful thinking that the deals will be as favourable to the UK, with its now much smaller leverage.

I never said anything about the deals with the EU being as favourable.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#293

Post by simonswords82 »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #72
simonswords82 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been so much scaremongering in the UK press that the markets are now reacting accordingly. Ultimately trade deals are important not just to the UK but to the countries it trades with. People in power will make deals happen because they have to. There's going to be some short term pain - but ultimately everything will balance out.

If the so-called scaremongering proves to be true (foreign investment shifting away from UK, etc.), I'm afraid, people like you will call it a conspiracy and a global plot facilitated by a vengeful EU.

Will I call it a conspiracy? That's very insightful of you, thanks for your fortune telling.

There's going to be pain, but I have confidence that we'll get deals in place that on average over the next five to ten years will see things balance out.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#294

Post by simonswords82 »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #128
simonswords82 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been so much scaremongering in the UK press that the markets are now reacting accordingly. Ultimately trade deals are important not just to the UK but to the countries it trades with. People in power will make deals happen because they have to. There's going to be some short term pain - but ultimately everything will balance out.

So if you were heading an American business and looking to open an office in Europe right now would London still be on the list?

Right now, today? Nope. But in time as the crazy starts to subside and normality returns and everyone stops screaming the sky is falling? Possibly.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#295

Post by dragonwriter »

Analemma_ wrote: post #234
Grue3 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He'll go down in history as one of the worst leaders the UK ever had Talk about lack of perspective. In the long term it's absolutely insignificant. It's like people calling GWB or Obama the worst US president. Can't believe such a poorly thought out comment is at the top.

Normally I would agree with you and say that "worst leader ever" statements are hyperbolic when the leader is still in office, but this time I think it's appropriate. The United Kingdom is probably going to ultimately dissolve as a result of this vote, and Cameron is going to be remembered as the moron who let it happen, all because of a catastrophically failed gambit to pander to the Ukip-leaning Tories. "Worst lead…

> The United Kingdom is probably going to ultimately dissolve as a result of this vote

Well, the union between Scotland and the rest of the UK might dissolve, but going from four to three countries in the UK isn't really dissolving the UK (NI had a pro-EU majority, but it doesn't sound like it really changes the basic dynamics keeping NI in the UK.)

> "Worst leader ever" seems apt when you directly caused a nation's end.

Peacefully breaking with Europe in a way that might also result in a peaceful break with Scotland vs., for just the first competition that jumps to mind, the Munich Conference? Yeah, I think outside of the passions of the moment, Cameron's likely to be seen as something far less notable than "worst PM ever".

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#296

Post by Kurtz79 »

mc32 wrote: post #251
Kurtz79 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"he saw a potential route into number 10 and took a gamble on it." The funny thing is that basically Cameron used a similar gamble to be elected. Push Brexit referendum, and hope for a Remain outcome. I mean, it would be funny if the well-being of millions of people would not be impacted by all this gambling.

The main thing is that regardless of who pushed for or against the UK exiting the EU the voters voted to leave. Neither Boris nor David made a unilateral decision. The people took action and voted against the EU. Lots of people are in shock but should not be.

They both rode (in turn) petty nationalism sentiments to further their own ambitions.

I really don't think people's best interests have been served.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#297

Post by dragonwriter »

actuator wrote: post #20
lossolo wrote: post #2

I just watched his talk. He lost. He fought that he can avoid crack in his party and anti-eu members will be pleased if he make this move - referendum. Then he thought he will get what he wants from EU and then all citizens will vote remain. He was wrong on all this points. He is the biggest looser in this situation and he really knows it.

With emerging talk of Irish unification and Scottish independence after the referendum, some legacy he is going to leave behind.

> With emerging talk of Irish unification and Scottish independence after the referendum, some legacy he is going to leave behind.

As much as Sinn Fein might like to think they could exploit the pro-EU majority to push Irish unification, it seems to me that NI still has a unionist majority, and that those who are in the pro-EU/unionist overlap are predominantly going to favor staying with the UK instead of Ireland at the cost of the EU over joining the EU at the cost of unification with Ireland.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#298

Post by ohnomrbill »

wastedhours wrote: post #208
monk_e_boy wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'm one of those rare people who lurk on hackernews, but who's friends are normal working types. Nurses, janitors, teachers, teaching assistants, plumbers, electricians, carpetenters, fisher men. None of these people are on your facebook feed, or hackernews comment section. These are the people who have had enough of all this crap. We're not stupid. We're just poor.

I am honestly struggling to see how people believe leaving will make us richer (as has been the rhetoric from the leave campaign) - taxes will quite likely not change, that money will almost certainly not filter back into the pockets of the workers, and will be used to prop up other sectors of the economy that will suffer as a result of this, or to just pay down other debt (which whilst a benefit, still wont help mos…

I imagine that a lot of leave voters hoped that this will make them richer in the short term (though reality seems to be sinking in). I think the more compelling argument is one that is certainly felt, but harder to put into words - the British want protectionism back.

If you're a factory worker, you might not care that the EU makes the UK richer through free trade. That the EU benefits you overall doesn't matter - you would prefer a system where the pound is weaker, and imports/exports are tough, if it means that the manufacturing needs of British workers are served by British citizens like you. Having a manufacturing job, even if it is less lucrative, is more appealing than having no job and watching the rest of the country enjoy a slightly higher quality of life. Open borders mean you let in foreign doctors and scientists; it also means that you let in cab drivers and factory workers, in greater numbers. The British are pushing back against this. Unskilled workers would rather have a dose of protectionism than the possibility of a vacation in Spain.

For what it's worth, I think that the leave vote will not bring the kind of protectionism the British want.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#299

Post by qdog »

SEJeff wrote: post #285
qdog wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the exact opposite of liberal, "open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values." There are plenty of intelligent people in all parties, disagreeing with them doesn't make them idiots. Greenspan comes to mind, I think his basic market beliefs are wrong, but don't think he's an idiot, I have read his book. GW is a lot closer to idiot level because of his demeanor AND his actions, but…

But I don't actually think GW was an idiot by the sheer fact that he surrounded himself with some of the most brilliant conservatives of the time. Cheney is evil incarnate, but few would call him an idiot. The same can be said about his secretary of defense, donald rumsfield. Rumsfield is the shining example of "doing it right" and being a hard charger.That being said, the two of them colluded and it caused badness.…

Maybe wasn't clear, GW isn't an idiot, but closer than most leaders, I'd say. Did GW choose all those people, or were they all pretty much from the conservative cabal that got GW elected? I think things like Iraq lack of evidence due diligence and Katrina appointing super inept guy are the things that make me think GW's personal selection skills weren't great, he did have brilliant advisers as you listed.

I don't think Trump is an idiot, more of a huckster with extreme emotions, but certainly loves to pander to the idiot mentality.

Dan Quayle is really the only true idiot I can call to mind who had a major position in a US party I can recall.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#300

Post by dragonwriter »

gonvaled wrote: post #97
youngtaff wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no process for the EU to suspend the UK or for the EU to trigger article 50

You are not suggesting that the UK leaving the EU will be done on UK terms only, do you? Like "we get that funding chunk and then we leave" or "we attend that EU parliament session and then we leave" or "we don't say how or when, we'll just leave, whenever it suits us, and please don't disturb because I am too busy doing important things which you can not hope to comprehend". How long do you think the EU will wait fo…

> You are not suggesting that the UK leaving the EU will be done on UK terms only, do you?

The UK has to trigger Article 50, but the Article 50 process sets the terms (or, at least, the process by which the terms will be set), and it doesn't favor the country leaving.

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