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California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

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Re: California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

#291

Post by cylinder »

chrisseaton wrote: post #179
cylinder wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would save money themselves? I thought America is all about personal responsibility and independence and such? They can use 401k just like the private sector.

But a private 401k is just another type of pension. The people I was replying to were saying that pensions, in general, so of all types, were a bad idea.

Many pensions in the US promised guaranteed payments in retirement that they cannot now meet in low interest rate environments. This is one of the core issues with pensions in the US.

Also, pensions are not controlled by the individual. The money is pooled and managed by the pension fund. This is of course subject to corruption and bloated fees as we have seen. The 401k program is not perfect, and in fact needs to be totally reformed, but they at least offer more choice and competition and do not promise guaranteed returns.

Re: California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

#292

Post by dragonwriter »

chrisseaton wrote: post #179
cylinder wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would save money themselves? I thought America is all about personal responsibility and independence and such? They can use 401k just like the private sector.

But a private 401k is just another type of pension. The people I was replying to were saying that pensions, in general, so of all types, were a bad idea.

Pensions are defined benefit, 401k is defined contribution. They are both retirement vehicles, but distinctly different, particularly in terms of risk.

Re: California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

#293

Post by dmode »

rconti wrote: post #158
dmode wrote: post #145

So, "exodus" is used to define a mere outflow of 60K residents ? That is less than 0.05%. Also, this article makes no sense. If California was losing people for the last 22 years, how come it's population went from 29 million in 1990 to 40 million in 2016 ? I hate how none of these "exodus" articles are data centric and explain these two discrepancies. Is the population growth then due to birth rate ? or due to immig…

Yeah, they used outflow numbers for the entire state to "prove" that there's an exodus from the Bay Area. Here's your hint: "California has seen negative outward migration to other states for 22 of the last 25 years." Obviously the Bay Area does not have negative outward migration, or the traffic and housing issues would be solved. Another interesting quote cites a man inexplicably commuting from SF to the East Bay w…

Ha ha ha. These anecdotes prove the level journalism have fallen due to clickbait. The commute from SF to East Bay is pretty easy during rush hour.

Re: California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

#294

Post by dragonwriter »

jazzyk wrote: post #251
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government jobs are often very low pay. Many government workers who are promised a pension are locked out of social security. If you are being paid so low that you cannot save for regular expenses, let alone retirement, then what are you going to do when you turn 65? Turn over and die immediately? Also, the reason you assure pension to government employees is because they tend to be stable and dependable workers over…

This is like the "Java is slow" myth that will never go away :-) In 2014 federal civilian workers had an average wage of $84,153, according the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis [1].5 By comparison, the average wage for the nation's 111 million private-sector workers was $56,350. In Las Vegas, the average salary and benefits package for firefighter union employees was $199,678 (in 2009, I think) [2]. The average salar…

If you compare like jobs rather than workforce averages without regard to distribution of kinds, you'll find different results.

You are also wrong about federal pensions, they aren't as a rule 80% of your final year salary. The normal FERS formula is 0.01 * high-3 * years of service (full months of service less than a year count as fractional years). The "high-3" is the highest annual pay of any 3 consecutive years of service. To get 80% of the high-3 (which, with increasing salary, is still less than 80% of last service year) you'd have to have 80 years of service.

Re: California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

#295

Post by sn9 »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #273
shawndumas wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in Long Island, NY and Boca Raton, FL I gotta say... I don't think I could leave the Bay Area. The weather, the geological features, the schools, the meetups, the job opportunities... all factors. But the biggest is that the people are truly interested in intellectual matters in a way that was not extant in the other places I've lived. My son is a programmer and nobody had a clue what he was talking abou…

Perhaps it's a character defect, but I consider "the life of the mind" to be more about books than something involving other people directly, face to face. The philosopher kings of SiVa are as much the Medici as they are intellectuals. "All mankind's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room." - Blaise Pascal.

There's value in face-to-face interactions and conversations like meetups and hacker spaces or math circles for kids.

Re: California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

#296

Post by npsimons »

collyw wrote: post #239
npsimons wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What geological features of the Bay Area do you regard as a plus point? I believe they may be talking about the Sierra Nevada range, with mountaineering matched only by places in the Andes, Himalayas or Alps. Yosemite is the climbing capital of the world and the birthplace of modern rock climbing. Sure, it's not right in the Bay area, but you can easily drive to a trail head within a half day or less. Little known…

Half a days drive is a lot. In Edinburgh there are decent outdoor sports half an hour away.

Which is exactly why I said "or less". Depending where you live in California, Bouldering or sport climbing could be 20 minutes away,plus it's available year round. You can't beat that.

Re: California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

#297

Post by omilu »

jazzyk wrote: post #251
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government jobs are often very low pay. Many government workers who are promised a pension are locked out of social security. If you are being paid so low that you cannot save for regular expenses, let alone retirement, then what are you going to do when you turn 65? Turn over and die immediately? Also, the reason you assure pension to government employees is because they tend to be stable and dependable workers over…

This is like the "Java is slow" myth that will never go away :-) In 2014 federal civilian workers had an average wage of $84,153, according the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis [1].5 By comparison, the average wage for the nation's 111 million private-sector workers was $56,350. In Las Vegas, the average salary and benefits package for firefighter union employees was $199,678 (in 2009, I think) [2]. The average salar…

>>80% of your last year salary

This was under the old retirement system called CSRS. If you entered service after 1987 you are under FERS where 20 years of service gets you 20% pension, and you get additional 1% for every additional year. So 40 years you get 40% pension, not great.

Re: California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

#298

Post by justinlardinois »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #283
justinlardinois wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Six figures is a huge exaggeration. You can reasonably find a one bedroom apartment for yourself in west San Jose for $2000/month, likely less if you shop around or are willing to live in a studio, and live off $1000-1500/month for everything else. Even if you're making payments of a few hundred a month on, you don't need to be anywhere close to six figures to have that lifestyle. Granted, the level of income you'd n…

In order to be able to afford 2K for a one bedroom apartment (definitely on the low end for Santa Clara County) you're going to have to save up at least that much for moving expenses. Want to try doing that on a less than 6 figure salary (I'd say 85K maybe if you want to stretch it). 60K could've landed you a cheap apartment in 2007, but not anymore.

As I said, apartments are easily found for that price: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/sby/apa?max_price=2000

But anyways, $3500/month (what I mentioned above) is 42k/year in take home pay. Doing some very rough back-of-the-envelope math, that would be a pre-tax salary of about 50k. Obviously that's not reality, but 60k is definitely livable around here. You'd drive a cheap used car and you wouldn't save anything, but you'd be comfortable and wouldn't have to worry too much about frugality.

Someone making 85k would be more than okay.

Re: California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

#299

Post by shawndumas »

rconti wrote: post #151
arethuza wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What geological features of the Bay Area do you regard as a plus point? NB Not being snarky - I live in Edinburgh which is overflowing with geological features [hence arguably being the birthplace of geology as a science] and I love that factor but the main geological feature of the Bay Area would appear to be a major disadvantage rather than a feature?

I guess parent meant geographical. Ocean, bay, mountains, forests, near-deserts, all in close proximity.

bingo

Re: California's skyrocketing housing costs, taxes prompt exodus of residents

#300

Post by astrange »

sk8ingdom wrote: post #164
aphextron wrote: post #39

When people saying housing costs are out of control in California, really they mean the bay area. Every other part of the state is no worse than anywhere else.

This is objectively not true [1] and has the same sort of arrogance that frustrates people who live in other areas of the state. Is the cost of living ridiculous? Absolutely, but the higher-than-average salaries at least help compensate. Consider, for example, San Diego [2], which is considered the worst city for long term wealth accumulation in the entire USA. 1. http://www.trulia.com/home_prices/California/ 2. http…

Hard to believe this article when it says Detroit is a better place to earn wealth than NYC.
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