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American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

theatlantic.com

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Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#291

Post by pappyo »

Spooky23 wrote: post #282
pappyo wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so my hypothetical was more to show the lack of ability for the average person to predict the future...not actually predicting it. And that's the biggest flaw I see with a vocational education. It's preparing yourself tomorrow for the workforce of today. It can work, but be ready to be out of a job in an instant.

So you shouldn't pursue a computer science education?

Not what I'm saying at all. Although...maybe at some point in the future, a CS degree will be useless. It's certainly not now, nor will it be in the near future. But it certainly could happen.

Regardless, I'm pointing out the problems with the push for wide spread vocational education. My worry is the usefulness of such an education will have diminishing returns over the life of the recipient of the education, and that decay will be wide spread among many industries.

Look how fast industries and markets change now. Compare that to how long any given vocational education takes to accomplish plus the working lifespan of its recipient. The math doesn't add up to me.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#292

Post by facetube »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #287
facetube wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Sweden study absolutely does not show that, and I've explained why elsewhere in the thread. The mere fact that something is an RCT does not make it instantly generalizable to all populations, no matter how many times you repeat the claim. You'd need to at least control for pre-intervention access to care and study a US population to even get close to what you're claiming.

What's the mechanism by which you think wealth increases health? It's not getting more healthcare, since if it were Oregon should have increased health. If it's buying non-medical things, what is the relevance of Sweden's UHC?

You've made numerous unacknowledged factual and logical errors already, and appear to not understand the limits of the RCTs you're citing. I don't see any value in continuing this discussion. Have a great day.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#293

Post by lsc »

x5n1 wrote: post #74
guscost wrote: post #43

I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. He's done some amazing journalism with "Dirty Jobs" and his mikeroweWORKS foundation is terrific. He claims that unconditional encouragement toward intellectual dreams does not help most people, and argues that more kids should be pursuing professional trades. This overlaps with one of the better suggestions from this article. In general I think these are hit or miss, and maybe too academ…

At the end of the day say that you paid everyone the same amount of money regardless of whether they worked or did not. And there was no additional way to make money. Maybe there was an additional barter economy where you could work for things that you could then trade for other things. How would that change things. Because now no one would have to work and would only do things if they wanted to do them. And everyone…

>Even supposedly technically superior well paying work usually treats the workers like tools. Management which is often staffed by not the most intelligent has the most power in an organization. They stress coerce and harass people in order to get work out of them, work which is often earning the company multiples of what they are paying people. And that's how the whole economy is structured. It is still not is possible to be a technical person who is well paid yet still not feeling happy, pleasant, or even healthy. It can still be a somewhat miserable way to live your life. Not as miserable as being not intelligent and employable, but still can be problematic.

As humans, we have this really weird way of adjusting to "normal" - You can put us in a veritable paradise (and I'm not quite sure how else to describe the modern tech company) - or you can put us in really pretty bad situations, and either way, we're gonna whine.

I'm currently having many of the feelings you describe about my dayjob. But then I sit back and think: The worst day as a low-status technical grunt at this job is way better than the best day as a nerd in high school.

In high school, at best you are a burden. Yeah, there were a few teachers who really went out of their way to be kind and helpful to those burdens, but you are still a burden. More usually, though, your highest value use is to be torn down so that someone else can feel slightly less terrible about themselves.

Heck, I think this job is probably better on average than a few of my early jobs, which I loved at the time, simply because being treated as a thing with some small positive value is vastly better than being treated as a thing with no value, and after high school, I was so used to being treated as something with no value that being treated as if I had any value at all was absolutely wonderful.

Being as I'm now used to being treated fairly well, even small slights seem to really come to the forefront, and I find myself complaining about relatively minor social issues.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#294

Post by OnlineCourage »

kstenerud wrote: post #203

This is pretty silly. In any society, we must decide how to distribute the resources generated by that society. So you make the rules, set up enforcement, and plod along, making changes as you go, as far as you dare in the face of the inevitable political machinations of everyone involved. The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so si…

> The more intelligent and clever will always benefit

Not during the cultural revolution in China.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#295

Post by Kalium »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #279
guscost wrote: post #43

I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. He's done some amazing journalism with "Dirty Jobs" and his mikeroweWORKS foundation is terrific. He claims that unconditional encouragement toward intellectual dreams does not help most people, and argues that more kids should be pursuing professional trades. This overlaps with one of the better suggestions from this article. In general I think these are hit or miss, and maybe too academ…

> I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. He's done some amazing journalism with "Dirty Jobs" and his mikeroweWORKS foundation is terrific. He claims that unconditional encouragement toward intellectual dreams does not help most people, and argues that more kids should be pursuing professional trades. Then maybe he should stand up for the interests of trades workers. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/mike-rowes-dirty-job/

It's very likely he's more more interested in helping people than in flailing uselessly against "capitalists and their political allies". Rowe's the kind of person who cares about results. Jacobin authors care about posturing.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#296

Post by grossvogel »

grossvogel wrote: post #227
jacquesm wrote: post #160

I'd substitute 'wealth' for 'intelligence', and it goes much further than just American society.

In fact, I'd say the unspoken premise of the article is that economic success equals human wealth. From there, it argues mainly that economic success is increasingly determined by intelligence. Strangely, the article ignores the strong anti-intellectual undercurrent in American culture , which may be a byproduct of these economic changes, and which seems to be the focus of many comments here.

Oops: "...economic success equals human worth"

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#297

Post by BuckRogers »

astrange wrote: post #281
BuckRogers wrote: post #56

That's a huge improvement over where we were a few years ago, when Steve Jobs died and I noted all the human misery and pain he caused with his employment of Foxconn sweatshops. My coworker said Jobs' life was worth more than those factory workers. I reminded him that everyone has equal worth and he seemed stunned at my forceful response. Noting that your life has to feel pretty hopeless to jump out the window of the…

Foxconn workers are less likely to commit suicide than Chinese in general, not more, which really weakens this argument. Although Steve Jobs made more from investing in Pixar than Apple (I think) so the mental health of Toy Story animators could be an issue?

That reads as quite the troll, politically or financially motivated but I'll indulge you. To start off, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, do you have citations for either of your claims? Your entire argument rested on them yet you didn't produce.

Even once you produce those, I disagree with your premise. The comparison should be work-related suicides in other factories in nations with better labor conditions. Fiat factory suicides vs Foxconn would make more sense than the population as a whole. Making more money with Pixar, if true, is not correlation or causation.

You can make money, and not drive your employees or sub-contracted to suicide. Exploitation is not a requirement for financial success or otherwise. That was the point.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#298

Post by [deleted] »

Aloha wrote: post #111

I learned when I was a child it was dangerous to be the smartest person in the room. It's much safer to appear to be the village idiot, or at least less bright that the brightest. I do disagree fundamentally with the concept of the evils of merit - merit is so much more than smarts and formal education, its a mix of capacity for the role, agreeability and eagerness, productivity, effort expended, grooming and appeara…

[deleted]

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#299

Post by a1b3c6 »

Hondor wrote: post #60
nononosisisi wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it will ever be ok to be a pedophile which unfortunately you seem to imply it should be ok. Even back then lots of people knew slavery was wrong but could not do much about.

It's hard to make an argument against pedophilia (as a sexuality) which doesn't also argue against homosexuality. Of course gay men raping other men is bad and is still a crime, just as adults raping children is bad. But that's not what contemporary culture says. It says it's wrong to be sexually attracted to children even without causing any harm. There were cultures in history where sex with children was accepted,…

>It says it's wrong to be sexually attracted to children even without causing any harm.

The act of having sex with children at all causes them harm. Any sex with children is considered rape, because children can NEVER consent to any form of sexual activity. That's the actual "modern value" we hold, not the one you've misunderstood it to be.

That's why

>It's hard to make an argument against pedophilia (as a sexuality) which doesn't also argue against homosexuality.

Is an invalid statement. Homosexuality doesn't have to include raping other men, but pedophilia always involves raping (harming) children. Pedophilia "Just as a sexuality" can be considered immoral because the only way to express that desire is by harming children. That doesn't mean people should be punished just for being pedophiles, but obviously they need some form of counseling and to stay away from children.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#300

Post by tmptmp »

curioussavage wrote: post #120
WalterBright wrote: post #84

Anti-intellectualism runs deep in American society. Consider the words nerd, wonk, geek, brainiac, college boy, the negative Hollywood stereotypes, etc. The Big Bang Theory is the latest incarnation of that. My father learned to keep his book collection out of the living room.

I disagree. Citing a few labels is easy, Hollywood and popular culture have stereotypes for every kind of person. Everybody thinks they are the persecuted group. I think the opposite. America most certainly worships intellectuals, who control public education. So starting at age 5-6 kids are brainwashed into thinking that they are 'stupid' if they can't do arithmetic in their head, or remember all the inane rules of…

>>All major modern institutions of any importance exalt the intellectual while debasing anyone who hasn't been blessed.

But that's a natural and important thing to do. After all they want to solve problems that require intellectual power. Also, I disagree that the intellectual ones are intellectual only because they are blessed. A lot of grit and hard work is involved that cannot be so easily sidelined. There are a whole lot other issues also involved: nurturing by parents is one, exercising one's freedom to choose is another. If someone chooses, say dancing/sport over mathematics/science, at an early age, they (and/or their parents) are depriving themselves of an opportunity to improve their intellectual prowess. They (and/or their parents) are doing themselves a disservice.

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