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An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

reuters.com

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Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#291

Post by shimn »

abrookewood wrote: post #105
howlingfantods wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not about cheating, but my friend runs a education consulting service in China and he recently got a call from a father saying that his 20 year old daughter was in the USA studying English but found it too difficult. The father wanted to know if my friend could help his daughter transfer to a school in a country speaking easier English, like Australia. He and his daughter apparently thought Australia spoke some sort…

As an Australian, I can confirm that in some parts of the country this is probably true! Seriously, our elocution is nothing short of atrocious: we drop words, use frequent contractions and then just roll everything into one mumbling, rolling wall of noise. Witness "owzigoin?". Known in more respectable locations as "How are you doing?". FWIW I'm just as guilty as the rest.

Sadly, your examples seem to suggest the opposite. The condensing of phrases makes the language more opaque and difficult to learn. So to a versed English speaker, the dropped implied words are easy to fill in; for someone learning, it's requires significant processing.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#292

Post by whamlastxmas »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #208
whamlastxmas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I valued my degree's paper more than the content. The content was largely bullshit. Who needs to learn astronomy for a business degree? Employers don't give a shit if I know about astronomy, why should I care? It's required, however, so I took it. I did the minimum to get a 4.0 and nothing more. I think space is interesting and I read about it in my free time, but memorizing facts and figures about random things isn'…

Wait what, you had to take astronomy in uni to get a business degree? Could you elaborate, maybe point me to the program? I've never heard of anything like this. (although I do know other ridiculous examples, don't laugh but I know people who had PE in a uni business degree. team building competencies and all that crap haha)

I had to take 8 hours (two classes) of a science class with a lab. I could have done physics, biology, chemistry, etc. Astronomy was the easiest option so it's what I chose. I think most, or at least many, business schools have a requirement for this in the US.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#293

Post by rtpg »

darawk wrote: post #256
rtpg wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, since Adderall and the like are in limited supply, you're preventing people who actually need it to function from getting the access they need.

Adderall is not in limited supply. It is incredibly trivial and cheap to manufacture.

Right, but because of the rules set in place (since it's categorized as a meth derivative or something), a lot of pharmacies don't stock a lot, or are completely unwilling to fill a prescription.

If you check out places like /r/ADHD you'll see some stories of people unable to get their prescription filled.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#294

Post by rtpg »

douche wrote: post #247
rtpg wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, since Adderall and the like are in limited supply, you're preventing people who actually need it to function from getting the access they need.

It's absurdly easy to get diagnosed with ADHD/ADD and get an Adderall or equivalent prescription. I don't think the pharmaceutical companies have any qualms about producing more supply, if there is demand for it.

There are distribution issues because of drug control regulations. Didn't mean to imply that it's hard to produce

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#295

Post by Snargorf »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #149
Snargorf wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-Chinese students also have those same problems, but they don't cheat like the Chinese. Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in public, or society at large. This is a place where bystanders will watch cars swerve wildly around an open manhole cover over and over, nearly getting in accidents, doing nothing to hel…

> Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in public, or society at large. I am Chinese and I would respectfully disagree that cheating is some part of Chinese culture. The only example you gave was basically the bystander effect in action, which you then ascribe to... cheating somehow? Moral depravity of millions of p…

Hong Kong, perhaps? Or Chinese-American?

I was really focusing on mainlanders; I've not noticed this from people born in the West. And less in Hong Kong (though still present).

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#296

Post by IkmoIkmo »

ams6110 wrote: post #119
rhizome wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US it's illegal to require a degree for almost all postitions that people around here are concerned with. Companies always try to elide this, but bizdev, marketing, programming, sysadminning, sales, and starting a company are not classified as the kinds of skilled positions for which a diploma can be required, such as engineering, finance, architecture, law, medicine, etc. I don't know if this maps perfectly t…

Illegal? Most employment in the US is at-will. You can hire or fire for any reason or none at all, as long as you're not selecting based on race, sex, religion, etc. Where is it illegal to require a degree in Marketing for a job in Marketing?

There's some truth to it, I believe.

There's legal notions that state you can't create arbitrary requirements. i.e. take a job where employees are on the phone with customers all day, it turns out that entrepreneurs would rather want your name to be John than Juan, Kwame or Mohammed. And given racial differences in socioeconomic standing, which create differences in educational attainment, it's easy to say a college degree is a requirement for the job, when you're really just using it as a proxy to hire a certain ethnic profile.

This is just an example, I'm not claiming here it's widespread (although it wouldn't surprise me in some industries, and many blind tests have shown preferences, but that's besides the point.)

Now this isn't new, so there have been court cases in the past. And they shaped a precedent which loosely states that you can't just say you need a degree for the job. You need to back that up with real data. This isn't common practice, but it's the law. So for a job where you need to do rudimentary work, there's technically quite a high burden of proof on the employer to require a degree for that.

The famous case is Griggs vs Duke Power Co[0][1]

There've been more cases since, it's not that hard to find. In any case, no it's not broadly illegal to ask for a degree at all. But there is precedent that unnecessary tests, e.g. a degree requirement for a telemarketing job, are indeed illegal.

I wouldn't know for certain how a judge would rule on the examples given by the person you replied to, like system admin or marketing, but I suspect the notion a degree would be required would be found entirely reasonable by a judge, like syst admin or marketing. But I get his point. I've got friends who work e.g. as a credit analyst, which is a job they say they and their peers could've done at age 16 without even finishing HS, yet it's a typical job that requires a degree and that a judge would probably be convinced of that it requires a degree.

[0] http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/401/424.html [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#297

Post by Ivannahack »

studentrob wrote: post #285
Ivannahack wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a pair of $400 Prada sunglasses as a "gift" from a Chinese student, first week of school. I was told it would be extremely rude to not accept a gift in Chinese culture. The student was very confused when a lower than expected grade was received.

Where was this? In China?

In the US

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#298

Post by fatman13gg »

studentrob wrote: post #184
fatman13gg wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said "those came back to China". Most undergrad went back to China eventually. Just compare the number of Chinese students given in the article and the number of H1-B visa issued every year. Do the math.

Oh I see.. you're saying, the article claims students have a better chance of getting a job in the US, but in reality, the chance is not so great since H1-B visas are limited. Are you happy that you studied in the US? Or do you think it was not worth it? Just curious.

For me personally, I don't think it is worth it. But if I hadn't studied abroad, it wouldn't have killed my interest to do so.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#299

Post by Ivannahack »

ISL wrote: post #234
jchiu1106 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said it's unfair to single out and potentially antagonize a group while the problem is more prevalent across many different groups. I don't see any contradiction here. Sorry...

Indeed. The concern is that anyone's successfully cheating, not where they're from.

I'd say the concern is Chinese, but it's a systemic problem rather than a concern about any individual's morals or honesty.

Here's a great, sad documentary on the hollowness of the Chinese dream's cycle of expectation, lack of regulation and general chaos of creating unrealistic expectations for millions. Highly recommend watching it.

"Education, Education: Why Poverty" http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/education-education/

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#300

Post by munchbunny »

Ivannahack wrote: post #281
studentrob wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think cheating is a part of Chinese culture, however, gifting seems to have been as recently as 2013/2014 in education [1] [2]. In business, it's still common to give your boss a gift in order to get a promotion [3]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-china-parents-bribe-... [2] http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/stories/teacher-scolds-class-... [3] https://www.rnw.org/archive/what-give-chinese-boss-who-…

I got a pair of $400 Prada sunglasses as a "gift" from a Chinese student, first week of school. I was told it would be extremely rude to not accept a gift in Chinese culture. The student was very confused when a lower than expected grade was received.

Yeah that puts you in a really weird position. Speaking as someone who grew up with a foot in both worlds, the best way to handle it is to refuse the gift as inappropriate in American academic culture. (I'm assuming this was in an American institution.)

Also refusing a gift isn't extremely rude in Chinese culture if it's in the nebulous "I scratch your back you scratch mine" gray area that might be bribery. Accepting is basically signing on for the "deal".

If a family member is visiting me and brought a gift, it would be rude to refuse beyond the culturally customary back and forth in which I put on a show of refusing. But if I were a TA and a new student tried to give me a pair of Prada sunglasses, I would outright refuse it, and possibly act insulted/offended by the thought.

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