Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bootcamps vs. College

blog.triplebyte.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 449 posts

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#291

Post by GVIrish »

jegutman wrote: post #112
p4wnc6 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble is that while most employers say the same thing you say -- that they hire for critical thinking ability and intellectual curiosity / talent -- almost all of them don't actually want that. Instead they want employees who don't think independently; employees who are pliable and will not complain if given drudgery, told to use poor practices, told to make things of poor quality. Everyone says they don't just…

I don't think companies really don't want employees that think independently. These employees come with a ton of upside. However, not everybody turns out to be a star and in some companies (plenty still foster it) they don't want their average employees to be completely rogue.

> However, not everybody turns out to be a star and in some companies (plenty still foster it) they don't want their average employees to be completely rogue.

I think it's more that most companies don't want employees challenging decisions made higher up in the org chart, star or no star. A lot of people don't like having their decisions challenged, especially when they're wrong or they have a hard time defending those decisions.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#293

Post by eonw »

xapata wrote: post #231
SilasX wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto! I went to a bootcamp after having worked in aerospace for 6+ years and, I had a mechanical engineering degree. I had programmed for a long time and had no problem with basic algorithm exercises (of the kind they spend the early part of these camps on). [1] The problem is, there was no easy way -- for someone like me wanting to go into software -- to (convincingly) say, "Hey, I can code and think abstractly. Gi…

> Frustratingly, the instructors were very unhelpful at the stuff I needed help with the most -- forming a mental model of how and why Rails works. I suspect that's because they didn't know how or why. Rails has a lot of magic -- just follow the convention and it works. Magic can be good, because it encourages a standard. Unfortunately, many Rails programmers seem comfortable leaving the magic as a mystery rather tha…

this has always been my largest gripe about ruby, i like to understand the magic. frustrating when i cant.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#294

Post by eonw »

morgante wrote: post #193
SilasX wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point -- I didn't . I just needed it to convince someone to give me a chance. Employers would assume someone still in college for CS can program, and so look there. They don't automatically make that assumption for some rando with a different degree. To be sure, there were also probably some job-searching techniques that would have worked, but they're also hard to learn from reading pointers online if you…

Did you actually try to interview before the bootcamp though? (Ideally after building a few portfolio projects.) I ask because I had no trouble getting jobs and freelance work without a degree or bootcamp. In fact, a bootcamp is usually a strong negative signal for me. I'd much rather hire a self-taught developer than a bootcamper.

that works both ways; you hire self taught because you are self taught, just like CS grads tend to prefer hiring other CS grads.

me, i have no preference when i interview a candidate... can you code? and can you solve complex problems? other then that i dont care about how you got your skills.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#295

Post by AlexeyMK »

I'm most curious to see what the stats are deeper into the funnel, specifically:

- At what rate do bootcamp grads vs new grads get offers (intro --> offer at portfolio companies)?

- Is the above metric significantly different for different classes of companies (either segmented by company size, field, or "CRUD-eyness" of company?

As a former hiring manager at a "much harder than CRUD" company, I remember looking at some bootcampers and saying "I wish we could interview these people, but the knowledge gap is just too significant".

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#296

Post by busterarm »

Bahamut wrote: post #216
nostrebored wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My CS degree was four years of heavy abstract thinking. If you can get those skills elsewhere great, but I don't think it's that common.

I did math and physics in undergrad and math in grad school, and IMO they do more for critical thinking than CS. I too mainly care about how someone thinks, since the wrong implementation can be very costly, and strong thought processes can help pre-empt that greatly.

Interesting point. The most capable junior programmer (in experience) I know has a math degree. Algorithms are basically obvious to him and he has no trouble solving tough problems quickly.

The thing that gets in his way though is that his soft-skills are the absolute worst and he still can't get through an interview to get hired anywhere.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#297

Post by SturgeonsLaw »

lloyd-christmas wrote: post #270
6stringmerc wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a path I've been considering as well - had a lot of CS background, hated running Unix compilers instead of working with HTML & C++ (already learned some in HS) - so ditched the major. Went with English, which, you know, is another language 'n all. Got into the working world, still have tech savvy... So to me I have to question the ROI of walking away from 5+ years of professional advancement and jump into soft…

I took a pretty significant pay cut switching from an equities trader to a junior developer. I'm more than happy with the lifestyle change. I still find it funny, given my life quite literally revolved around ROI.

It goes to show there are more returns than just financial :)

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#298

Post by coderzach »

velodrome wrote: post #277
brudgers wrote: post #184

There are several factors that don't enter this analysis. 1. Bootcamps can be selective over a range of non-academic criteria such as interview skills, personal hygene, and prior work experience. Or to put it another way, unlike a public university, a boot camp can select for culture fit both in its internal cohorts and in the workplaces it targets. 2. Bootcamps tend to attract people with previous work experience: s…

How are bootcamps any different than vocational schools?

The name.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#299

Post by pbhjpbhj »

kemiller2002 wrote: post #78

Boot camps have their place, but they are not a replacement for a traditional CS degree. I have met good and bad programmers from both types of programs (some from well respected colleges who I still wonder how they exactly passed), but here's the thing, I don't care about practical skills. I care about the person being able to think. All those concepts that they teach in CS isn't about knowing the name of an algorit…

This thread is confusing me:

>"Boot camps have their place, but they are not a replacement for a traditional CS degree" //

Don't they teach different things. Boot-camps teach programming and CS degrees teach, well, computer science. Do boot-camps really address things [that I imagine CS degrees cover] like information theory and algorithm design, Turing completeness, language design and such? I imagined they chose one or two programming languages and taught the craft of program implementation?

I'm not a programmer but have learnt the very BASICs (lol!) of a few programming languages, in doing that I've barely touched on any CS worth talking about - normal forms in db design and comparison of a few different sort algos would be about the limit.

I always thought CS vs. programming was like physics vs. engineering?

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#300

Post by argonaut »

seattledev14 wrote: post #271
mrdrozdov wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Triplebyte make money? A lot of bootcamps place graduates as part of their process (and is how some of them make money), which is another factor to consider.

Mostly tuition. Some take a placement fee, but most companies don't pay a fee on Junior talent.

No, most SV companies will pay a recruiting fee for any engineers they hire, even junior engineers. This is okay because it is typically a percentage of first year salary - so the fee is less for junior candidates.
Post reply on HN