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Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

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Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#291
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the bike breaks mid stage, you either switch or you are DNF. Except when you allow riders who did not finish one stage to continue on the next, which would be totally ridiculous in an endurance event. In that sense, The Tour very much _is_ a single race (for the rider, not for the bike(s)).

Okay, so then allow for a bike switch if the bike breaks, as judged by a race official. One bike per stage doesn't seem like it would put too much strain on the hardware compared to one bike per year. Surely it would be possible to build bikes at a high enough quality that the number of DNFs would be so incredibly low as to be negligible. I love these Internet arguments that are like "okay, we have to argue and nitpi…

> Okay, so then allow for a bike switch if the bike breaks, as judged by a race official.

It's a race. The entire point of switching bikes is that swapping bikes has less impact on the athletic comparison than a lengthy repair and waiting for an official would defeat that. Besides, if you have a race official at hand, you might just give the old bike into his custody for engine detection, defeating the purpose of the maybe-no-swap rule.

The entire point of not swapping bikes would be that it could make engine cheating detection slightly easier. But that is far from necessary, developing reliable procedures for traceable bike swaps is far from impossible.

The entire NASCAR comparison is off anyways. Performance bikes don't really suffer much linear attrition over the course of a race. Even over three weeks of TdF, the distance ridden there is just within the typical service life of the most short-lived expendable part, which happens to be the chain and not the tires. Breakage within a race is therefore entirely stochastical, mostly getting a piece of gravel in the wrong spot, both for chain and for tires. Motor racing, on the other hand seems to be full of trade-offs between deterioration and performance, just look at tire consumption. And where motor racing is dominated by massive technology budget differences between teams, in cycling all participants in a single race have pretty much the same level of support: ranging from none at all on the lower levels of amateur racing to the full set of neutral support vehicles plus two cars per team at the high end.

> What's so bad about DNFs for equipment failures?

Stage races. DNF one stage means DNF for the whole set of stages. That's the entire point of an endurance sport. I suppose that in NASCAR, drivers who DNF for technical reasons in the first race don't have to wait for the next season to be allowed to start again? It's just no valid comparison.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#292
post #64

Just take the bike out of the race entirely. Declare a year in advance that the bike will be XYZ model Q so people can train on them, and the race maintains custody of all race bikes, spares, etc. It's already a money-competition to see who can buy the best super-bike. Yes, you have to have a minimum weight, but that just means that you can take a superbike and spend the extra weight applying aerodynamic fairings whe…

Technology is an integral part of cycling, just as it is in motorsport. There are some one-design motorsport racing classes, but they are far from the most popular. Fans like to see innovation, we like to coo over the beautiful new machinery on display. Some of the greatest moments in cycling are directly related to technical progress, most obviously the Obree/Boardman battle for the hour record. On one side a profes…

Why are recumbent bikes banned then? They're entirely human powered, and far more efficient.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work on a team that designed two electric motorcycles for the IOM TT Zero. Yes, it's a very different game from the gas races. Aero and energy storage on board are the primary concerns - the top team for the past several years has been successful primarily by packing on ~20-30% more energy than their competitors, so that they can go faster, for longer. The TT is really an edge case, though, since it is such a long…

If you've been there a while, I probably met you, or at least your colleagues - a few years back at Maker Faire (where you were showing off a yellow motorcycle, from memory R6 based?), and again at Sears Point for the first US TTxGp back in maybe 2010? One of your guys (Richard?) offered to get me good prices on Agni motors and packs of A123 cells for $300-ish per kWHr. (I should have taken him up on that... My curre…

Hmm, not us! We were there in '13 and '14, and our bike was built on a CBR1000RR chassis. I can't remember who had a yellow bike, although it sounds familiar... it may have been a bit before my time if they were talking about Agni motors.

Small world :)

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#294
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the people making the regulations were interested in efficiency, everyone would be racing in a fully covered recumbent bike. (They don't, because the regulations don't allow it.)

Yet they allow advanced alloys and other materials. There's obviously a balance. This is typical in racing.

Yes. One guiding principle of the regulations seems to be that they have to produce a bike that looks `normal' on TV.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think at this point the UCI do always inspect the winner's bike after each stage. Here's a scenario where a rider could avoid most scrutiny and get away with it.... Say a rider doesn't finish in the top 5 for any early stages but stays near the top of the pack time-wise. Meanwhile they are conserving energy e.g. through use of a motor during mountain stages. Then at the end, stop using the motor and have fresh legs…

Yes. Also keep in mind that stage races are very much a team effort. The winner can derive great benefit from teammates having motors while he himself stays "clean".

You're right, very good point.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#296
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why ban steroids? Why ban amphetamines? Whyban surgical modification? Why ban genetic engineering? Why ban motorised exo skeletons and nano technology? (I just read a great short story along these lines called ""Slipping" by Lauren Brookes - from the EFF'S PWNING TOMORROW short fiction anthology...)

The same question applies to all of those. If we allow technological enhancements, why is one enhancement too far? You couldn't run the course as fast as you can cycle it, after all. The same argument applies to all those other things - if we allow them then the playing field needs to stay absolutely level otherwise the person who can afford the strongest drugs, the newest gene-splicing, and the most efficient exoske…

This is exactly what I was getting at.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#297
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - that was aimed at me not them - but I'm happy to let the stereotype burn stand ;-) I will say to a first approximation, 100% of the RadioShack lycra liveried carbon fibre Trek riders I see riding through Sydney traffic on a weekday morning are _not_ Lance Armstrong class riders. (Not any more than I'm a Carl Fogarty or Troy Bayliss class motorcycle racer when I put my racing leathers on and fire up my Ducati M…

What a weird implication that you need to be the best to use good gear. The pro-style clothing isn't posing or brand snobbery. Jeans are way too hot, cotton clothes get uncomfortably sticky from sweat way too fast and let cold wind go through them. Proper bike clothes allow me to feel comfortable for a long time and won't get me sick. As for a good bike, it's just a better experience. I've owned a bunch of different…

Sure, but I see guys riding to work in "pro style clothing" with Rabobank and RadioShack logos all over them. My cynicism makes it hard for me to come up with justifications for that which are not super easy to make fun of...

I get the "owning nice toys" thing - I even get the guys who are 20kg overweight spending $5k+ to get a bike that's 2kg lighter than a bike that costs 20% of that. To me though, it starts seeming weird when they do that while dressed up in sponsor logos for companies that sometimes don't even exist in this country...

(And it's not just lycra wearing mamils either, I don't get the motorcycle riders who paint Repsol livery on their Honda or Aruba or Xerox logos on their Ducati...)

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#298
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird implication that you need to be the best to use good gear. The pro-style clothing isn't posing or brand snobbery. Jeans are way too hot, cotton clothes get uncomfortably sticky from sweat way too fast and let cold wind go through them. Proper bike clothes allow me to feel comfortable for a long time and won't get me sick. As for a good bike, it's just a better experience. I've owned a bunch of different…

Sure, but I see guys riding to work in "pro style clothing" with Rabobank and RadioShack logos all over them. My cynicism makes it hard for me to come up with justifications for that which are not super easy to make fun of... I get the "owning nice toys" thing - I even get the guys who are 20kg overweight spending $5k+ to get a bike that's 2kg lighter than a bike that costs 20% of that. To me though, it starts seemin…

Ah, you're talking about sponsor logos. I didn't get that at first. The only thing I know about RadioShack is that it's a store chain. I assumed they sell some rebranded bike clothes. Having sponsor logos on you that weren't put there by the clothing store seems indeed a bit quirky. I haven't seen that myself.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#299
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird implication that you need to be the best to use good gear. The pro-style clothing isn't posing or brand snobbery. Jeans are way too hot, cotton clothes get uncomfortably sticky from sweat way too fast and let cold wind go through them. Proper bike clothes allow me to feel comfortable for a long time and won't get me sick. As for a good bike, it's just a better experience. I've owned a bunch of different…

Sure, but I see guys riding to work in "pro style clothing" with Rabobank and RadioShack logos all over them. My cynicism makes it hard for me to come up with justifications for that which are not super easy to make fun of... I get the "owning nice toys" thing - I even get the guys who are 20kg overweight spending $5k+ to get a bike that's 2kg lighter than a bike that costs 20% of that. To me though, it starts seemin…

Does your cynicism carry over into teamwear for all sports? Baseball hats? Logowear in general? None of these people are pretending they are linebackers and point guards.

One thing you may not know is that logowear is like 90% of available men's cycling gear. There's an element of market failure.

Re: Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using motors

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I see guys riding to work in "pro style clothing" with Rabobank and RadioShack logos all over them. My cynicism makes it hard for me to come up with justifications for that which are not super easy to make fun of... I get the "owning nice toys" thing - I even get the guys who are 20kg overweight spending $5k+ to get a bike that's 2kg lighter than a bike that costs 20% of that. To me though, it starts seemin…

Does your cynicism carry over into teamwear for all sports? Baseball hats? Logowear in general? None of these people are pretending they are linebackers and point guards. One thing you may not know is that logowear is like 90% of available men's cycling gear. There's an element of market failure.

Yeah, it does - and hypocritically so. I'm currently wearing a tshirt with a Kees Van Der Westen Speedster logo on it (an espresso machine I covet badly, but am not prepared to spend $10k+ to own). I own and wear various motorcycle branded tshirts and coffee brand tshirts, as well as many many band and musician merch tshirts. So I;m just as guilty of "making a staement" with what I choose to wear. But, of course, _my_ choices are all rational and understandable. Those _other_ guys who dress up like Lance Armstrong while riding to work are _clearly_ worthy of my derision, right? ;-)
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