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We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

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Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#291

Post by fsloth »

qmalzp wrote: post #145
dominotw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So its basically extended interview for like 8 weeks where your every move is being watched/judged. When did it become ok to treat people like shit and humiliate them with these ridiculous "interviews". Seems like we keep coming up one worse idea after another. Shame on everyone who thinks its ok to humiliate people with your idiotic algorithm/whiteboard/big O interviews. This is getting so out of hand. Can we bring…

Am I the only person who thinks algorithmic/big O puzzles are kind of fun? Like they're super high stress when you're interviewing, but basically everything is super high stress when you're interviewing.

Personally, I enjoy a high stress induced buzz occasionally given that the situation is plausibly survivable. The problem with social pressure targeting me is that it incapacitates those areas of my brain that deal with anything related to maths and programming completely. I'm not kidding here. I read math books for fun and do recreational algorithmic design. So my brain is primed pretty good for technical stuff.

Any stress where I'm "tested" somehow where the "correct" solution is to amaze the interlocutor with my fantastic analytic skills? It's like I've had a brain surgery. That stuff is just not accessible. I don't feel terribly troubled by such situation but my brain apparently does.

The same does not happen with working in actual products where people are concerned in finishing a product on time and not evaluating me. Pressure is way higher in those situations but the pressure is to get the work done and not impress anyone by trying to outguess which theoretical approach is most dear to them.

For this reason Fizzbuzz is the most technically demanding task I would demand of anyone if I were to lead an interview. For fresh graduates? Look at their grades. More seasoned folk? Have they got stuff done and do they appear smart? I would emphasize this "getting stuff done part".

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#292

Post by dang »

kimdouglasmason wrote: post #285
dang wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't respond to incivility with further incivility.

I was not uncivil. This kind of belittling of family has to stop. Software development has a major problem hiring women, older people, and minorities. People in the sector belittling things like children and families by using terms like 'lifestyle choices' ARE part of the problem, and the industry has a very serious one. These people need to be called out for the poisonous garbage that they're spouting, and that call…

Telling someone "you are part of the problem" is a kind of personal attack. That counts as uncivil. I don't think I misread you, because phrases like "these people" and "need to be called out" are also markers of incivility.

Regardless of how right you are, how wrong someone else is, and how big of a problem the industry has, all commenters on HN need to follow the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#293

Post by GFischer »

webjprgm wrote: post #45
Tenhundfeld wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A surprising number of people can't code a loop in the languages on their resumes. I guess you can reach two conclusions from that: 1) A surprising number of applicants are totally misrepresenting their abilities – either through deceit or wild ignorance. 2) Something about your interview process makes a surprising number of people unable to perform at their normal level – from nervousness, unrealistic and artificia…

Misrepresenting abilities ... yes, I did that in my first job interview. The job posting said PHP, HTML, MySQL skills. Well, I knew HTML well enough but my PHP and MySQL skills were from a few side projects doing copy-paste-modify with PHP BB's code base to make my own web app, which I never did finish. So I only kinda/sorta knew those languages. But then at the end of the interview I was given a coding challenge to…

OTOH, for example, at a certain (non-IT) company, they overblow requirements for the most junior IT posts in such a way that the ONLY people they're able to hire are people that lie about their experience/abilities on their interviews (and there's no technical interview, so they can do so at will). They're optimizing their recruiting process in a very, well, weird way.

Edit: exactly the point shawn-furyan is making.

https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=11224427&goto=item%3Fi...

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#294

Post by ThomaszKrueger »

beat wrote: post #262
bad_user wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what the irony is? Us programmers thinking that "everyone can be a great programmer" is our preponderant liberal and very idealistic views showing. And we keep going around and shout that and other people believe it. And in turn we are being taken advantage of with long hours, unfair compensation for our contributions and the worse of it all? Ageism in our industry is rampant. I look at physicians, surgeons,…

Software engineers who "peak at 30" are not taking care of their careers. I'm over 50, haven't worked a full year anywhere in years. I contract or consult, and can usually find a new job lead in hours (or just deal with one of the many sitting in my inbox), and get hired in one (max two) interviews. And it's not because I'm a rocket surgeon. I know lots of software people who are eminently employable in their 50s and…

If you are not interested in learning something new you pretty much deserve to be in a world of hurt. In this business you can stay relevant into your 80's if you never, ever, stop learning and honing your skills. Peaking at 30 is pure BS.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#295

Post by emodendroket »

Grishnakh wrote: post #266
criddell wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to Google for it and I don't have the story right. Claudia Goldin was one of the authors of this study: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/aer.90.4.715 She was able to attribute 25% of the increase in hiring of women by orchestras was due to the blind auditions. She also found that there was an explosion of auditions when orchestras adopted the blind format. So it had an effect, just not as large a…

That's weird. From what I've seen of women in classical orchestras, if I were the one in charge of auditioning and hiring musicians (not blind), I'd probably be hiring mostly women.... Honestly, if you're a straight guy, why wouldn't you want pretty young women working with you?

I'm not sure hiring women with the aim of sexually harassing them is really what we're all talking about.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#296

Post by dang »

[deleted] wrote: post #289
kimdouglasmason wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there we go again. 'optional activity'. And people wonder why there are few women in tech and the situation is not improving. The post above is your answer. Have a family, it's the end of your career, because you engaged in productivity limiting 'optional activities'. Yes, the tech sector IS that toxic.

[deleted]

> I have no idea what you are going on about.

"Going on about" is a kind of calling names in this context. Please don't do that: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

If you'd used a neutral phrase there, this comment would be fine.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#297

Post by greglindahl »

dang wrote: post #187
greglindahl wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trial employment is a great way to not be able to hire the best. A trial period means uncertainty. Any reasonable candidate will consider that a negative, compared to a competing offer which looks more certain.

What's a better option in your view? Interviews suck and seem hopelessly broken.

I agree that interviews are broken; no matter what styles of interviews I've seen, I see them fail to predict the future.

Becoming good at firing is one way to triumph despite interview problems. Sometimes the employee is quite aware that they aren't working out. Even if they aren't, their coworkers probably can see the disaster unfolding. Done well, there's no morale hit.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#298

Post by debacle »

Encouraging hiring discretion and audition projects creates a situation where a massive amount of people who don't want to work on a project for a few weeks only to find out they aren't a 100% good match will never apply to your company.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#299

Post by saalweachter »

Grishnakh wrote: post #266
criddell wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to Google for it and I don't have the story right. Claudia Goldin was one of the authors of this study: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/aer.90.4.715 She was able to attribute 25% of the increase in hiring of women by orchestras was due to the blind auditions. She also found that there was an explosion of auditions when orchestras adopted the blind format. So it had an effect, just not as large a…

That's weird. From what I've seen of women in classical orchestras, if I were the one in charge of auditioning and hiring musicians (not blind), I'd probably be hiring mostly women.... Honestly, if you're a straight guy, why wouldn't you want pretty young women working with you?

Playing devil's advocate, that strategy can still end up with a deficit of women. If your selection bias is (pretty ^ young) women > dudes > (unattractive v old) women, your hires are still going to be predominantly dudes, unless the talent pool is so deep there is always a qualified woman available who is also pretty and young .

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#300

Post by dominotw »

dang wrote: post #296
[deleted] wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

> I have no idea what you are going on about. "Going on about" is a kind of calling names in this context. Please don't do that: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html If you'd used a neutral phrase there, this comment would be fine.

Sorry about that. I deleted my comment. Will keep that in mind going forward.
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