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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#291

Post by pkinsky »

bduerst wrote: post #270
pkinsky wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of college students are female. Most prisoners are male. Most homeless people are male. If we take it as a given that any group being under- or overrepresented in some category is a violation of the social contract, maybe we should start by fixing these glaring injustices.

>glaring injustices Kind of a false dichotomy. The APA has found that men are more likely to become substance abusers, which is linked to homelessness and conviction rates. Why not help both men and women? Why does one need to be first?

> Why not help both men and women? Why does one need to be first?

I'm not arguing that we should or should not help some group. I just think that if every instance of disparate impact is assumed to be solely due to discrimination, then we also need to start treating homelessness and the prison-industrial complex as gendered issues disproportionately affecting men.

> The APA has found that men are more likely to become substance abusers, which is linked to homelessness and conviction rates.

One could (tongue firmly in cheek) argue that this is due to implicit anti-male biases in society.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#292

Post by jdminhbg »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #245
jkyle wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" Hollywood has a history of being a canary in the coal mine when it comes to stereotypes...both good and bad. For example, when homosexuality started becoming more accepted in American culture one of the first signs were prominent gay sitcom characters.

Was it different in the past? Thinking back, the main "hackers" have been Keano Reeves, Angeline Jolie, Sandra Bullock and Justin Long. Now that I think of it, was the reality of hacking being primarily male ever displayed in popular media?

Certainly in the 80s -- War Games, Tron, Weird Science, et al.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#293

Post by dllthomas »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #156
dllthomas wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just darned some slacks and fixed a button yesterday. It's a good skill to have.

I fixed a button on my shorts. It's not pretty but my pants stay up.

Right on :) I feel like there's a weak parallel to be made between F/L/O software and sewing (and other DIY repair/customization).

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#294

Post by mcguire »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #128
Mz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You generally are being dismissive, not just "dismissing my anecdote". Women are frequently treated in a dismissive fashion by men. You dismiss my presumed hurt feelings over being misgendered as unimportant and something you cannot be bothered to put any effort into avoiding. You dismiss my accomplishments in gaining status on a predominantly male forum. You dismiss my "anecdote". And then you think that women shoul…

> Women are frequently treated in a dismissive fashion by men. Everyone is treated in a dismissive fashioned by everyone . Only evidence and careful reasoning can rebut this default policy. You have presented none. It galls me you interpret treatment that everyone receives as hostility directed toward the group to which you happen to belong. I am under no obligation to give additional weight to your argument merely b…

"Everyone is treated in a dismissive fashioned by everyone."

Citation? I strongly believe this to be false in general; certainly it has been in my experience.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#295

Post by icanhackit »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #281
icanhackit wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great post though I'd like to add some thoughts to this bit: the professional/business world as a whole rewards and values masculine traits (competitiveness, talking highly of yourself and accomplishments, etc.) I'd argue those are better classified as extroverted traits rather than masculine traits. Believe me, there are more than a few males that suffer from this being the dominant culture in business (or anywhere)…

> I'd say the next big battle in workplace equality is going to focus on treating introversion fairly. What do you think such an effort would look like? One problem is that in big companies, it's frequently not enough to do good work. To get recognition, you have to _advertise_ that you're doing good work.

> What do you think such an effort would look like?

Good question. I see two simple avenues - organizations having a better understanding of human psychology, certainly at the human resources level but ideally org-wide. And better metrics, such as mapping human networks from email exchanges so you can find who is really driving the strong relationships with clients or stakeholders.

I guess the condensed version would be: understand humans better.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#296

Post by sridca »

JesperRavn wrote: post #237
tptacek wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a nerd who grew up in the early 1990s: persecuted nerds do not have the right to (in any way) cordon off computer science as a refuge for their culture. But a lot of male nerds think they do!

Did I say that persecuted nerds have the right to cordon off CS as a refuge for their culture? I thought that I said the opposite. Your later comments suggest that you break things down exactly as I do: it's ok for nerds to be nerds, and it's ok for nerds to cluster in tech, but it's not ok to promote the idea that only nerds can do tech, or to promote an stereotype that goes beyond reality. Did you read my comment c…

The very fact that your previous comment was misinterpreted by tptacek to the point of castigating the imaginary nerds to give up their imaginary rights to "cordon off computer science as a refuge free from nerdiness" indicates to me that those people who are wont to blame the men in tech have little empathy to begin with.

The nerd culture has been one of the most inclusive cultures I've been with. As esr wrote, "No compiler or network stack or 3-D printer gives a crap about the shape of your genitals or the color of your skin, and hackers as a culture don’t either." http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6642

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#297

Post by maxcan »

sridca wrote: post #290
howeyc wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're also not supposed to point out such advantages. You'll be ostracized and placed into "male rights" sub group which has very negative connotations in general society. Tread lightly.

> Tread lightly. As long as you dispassionately and sensibly point out the injustice being done in the name of justice, what is the problem? The biggest issue now seems to be men not speaking up against their detractors. On the lighter side: "Women are constantly patting themselves on the back for how difficult their lives are and no one corrects them because they want to fuck 'em." – Bill Burr https://www.youtube.co…

I don't think the comment meant that dispassionately and sensibly pointing out the double standard is problematic but that one runs the risk of facing a large, internet backlash for pointing out certain classes of double standards of which the one above is one.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#298

Post by meowface »

duaneb wrote: post #288
muddyrivers wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a software engineer, male, Asian. Somehow I can relate to the article. Although I was always one of the top students in math and science and enrolled the top university, I was both intimidated and kind of disgusted by the culture stereotypes at the beginning of my career. I had self doubts if I would ever become a good software engineer, since I was far from the stereotypes. Sometimes, I was deeply disgusted by…

So—first, empathy, I don't get video games at all. Second—this strikes me as fairly standard cultural shock. It's one thing to find yourself immersed in a culture, it's quite another to find that you have to immerse yourself in that culture to reach your teammates. This is an experience I have not encountered before; people have surprised me with the lengths they go to ensure a healthy diversity in company culture so…

Veering a bit off-topic: I used to get video games when I was younger, and played them obsessively, but around the age of 18, I almost completely lost interest. I occasionally will play online games with friends nowadays, but I do that more for the "hanging out with friends" enjoyment. The game is just a vehicle for that.

I can't play a single-player game for more than 5 minutes without losing interest.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#299

Post by rhino369 »

hugh4 wrote: post #249
gaius wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But would anyone write an article saying that potential law students were put off by walls of law books and big mahogany desks?

More appropriate analogy: law students being put off by Sex In The City. That's in some hypothetical world where the law industry is for some bizarre reason as obsessed with Sex In The City as the tech industry is obsessed with science fiction. Conversations among coworkers return to Sex and the City references with tedious regularity. The meeting rooms at your firm are called Carrie and Miranda and Samantha and... t…

Law pretty much requires you at least be comfortable with some douchey stuff. It's very classist. Some of them look like you just murdered a baby if you got mcdonalds for lunch. Their version of nerd is pretentious yuppie.

It's not far off from working in tech and not being a nerd. Maybe even worse since nerds don't actively look down on regular people the way lawyers do.

I suspect the reason why women find the nerd culture more off putting is because being nerd is sort of bad. So thinking tech is nerdy means tech is embarrassing and undesirable. Not that they won't fit in. They don't want to fit in.

Either way, the solution is to encourage some women to do tech and they can trail blaze. Then future women can see that you don't have to be a nerd to do tech.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#300

Post by sridca »

maxcan wrote: post #297
sridca wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tread lightly. As long as you dispassionately and sensibly point out the injustice being done in the name of justice, what is the problem? The biggest issue now seems to be men not speaking up against their detractors. On the lighter side: "Women are constantly patting themselves on the back for how difficult their lives are and no one corrects them because they want to fuck 'em." – Bill Burr https://www.youtube.co…

I don't think the comment meant that dispassionately and sensibly pointing out the double standard is problematic but that one runs the risk of facing a large, internet backlash for pointing out certain classes of double standards of which the one above is one.

Let me rephrase what I said for clarity: the biggest issue now seems to be men not speaking up against their detractors for fear of being ostracized, of being labelled a member of a group with negative connotations, of facing a large internet backlash.
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