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The Unemployable Programmer

unemployable.pen.io

281–290 of 464 posts

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#281
post #39
post #20

Here's the dirty little secret about "employability" you hardly ever read about in places like HN: It's not about you. It's about your user and what they accomplish with the tools you build for them. It doesn't matter who you are, what you know, what education you have, where you've worked before, what turns you on, or what you think is cool. It only matters what you can do for others. It's really that fucking simple…

There seems to be some confusion amongst people who move from writing code for fun to writing code for money. Which is of course that they're not being paid to write code, but to solve problems. Writers and musicians usually don't get paid just to write or make music, they get paid to entertain. If you're confused about why you're being paid, you might start to think you're getting a raw deal. Since I started writing…

Agreed.

A small example: you have some internal database, and now different teams want to have some data analysis done.

The fun thing to do would be to write a generic reporting front end, and easy enough to use so that non-technical people can use to create their own report.

And the pragmatic solution that is to instead spew out all relevant data as CSV with a BOM, so that Excel can easily read it. Turns out a generic data analysis tool exists, and it's unlikely you can beat Excel at its job.

Producing some CSV files from a DB is orders of magnitude less work than creating your own analysis front end, so in nearly all cases, this is the solution you're paid to do.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'm self taught, no degree, and I get job offers and headhunters out of the blue from all over the central US. Denver, Kansas City, Omaha, Des Moines, Chicago, and small cities I've never heard of. The best thing I ever did was look at my friends early on who were getting found on linked in and organized my linkedin profile to look as similar as theirs as I could truthfully. The next best thing was taking 6 months…

Lessons from this post: 1. If you're going to swear, don't use an asterisk to try and make it look good. We can take it, honest. 2. Something in between two asterisks on HN gets shown in italics .

Huh. Yep, all I did was use the asterixesses. Clearly the site was offended by my attempt at modesty.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#283
The press, and some people here, are always saying they can't find good programmers, and it is certainly something that is overstated. One reason there aren't enough good programmers are people in your situation - you got by for a while programming Javascript and web full stack in Germany, yet now, during an economic boom in tech, you are increasingly having trouble finding work. As you get older, and if the tech market slows, you could be in worse shape. You're a data point for bright, young people who want to increase their tech skills towards why they should not want to go into IT.

That aside, I think you can still get work. You just sound discouraged after the rejection and sound like you are beginning to think a little fatalistically. Yes, not having a CS degree hurts you and yes, being at one company for over a decade slightly hurts you (not that much though) and yes, being in your early forties also hurts you. You don't say whether you're working that full-time decade long job any more (or maybe I missed it), if you were laid off, that also will hurt you more than if you're still working there, companies prefer hiring people already employed. You are over-discouraged though, you can still get work in this market.

You talk about going through many hoops, talking to many people, and a lot of weight given to college. Which sounds like a lot of applications to big companies. Only a big company could spend so much effort on each person, put a lot of weight on official credentials etc. So one thing to do is - don't just apply to big companies! Apply to small and medium sized companies as well. They often don't worry about college degrees as much, you're often talking directly to the decision makers right away, if they like you they often have the authority to hire you. Applying for big companies is fine, but mix it up a little.

Another thing - you say companies are interviewing dozens of people for each position. OK. What is going to put you over the top? The answer is different in different situations. From small to big companies the answer is usually technical and personal. For technical - picture the people interviewing as being a Gaussian curve with a normal distribution - the x-axis is how technically good you are, the y-axis is how many people reach that level. Where do you have to be on that curve? If a friend is bringing you into the company, you have to be in the middle or better. If you are going into a company cold, you have to be (if you're having trouble like you are) one standard deviation above the mean in terms of ability. If you're two standards above the mean, then you should be having no trouble.

What you have to realize is most people are in the middle of that bell curve. Most Javascript programmers can tell you what data types in Javascript are, what the "this" keyword is etc. You probably can as well. But if you start digging deeper into how well they know Javascript or frameworks their knowledge is not that deep, and they start mumbling the answers. The average Javascript programmer with your experience have an almost interchangeable amount of knowledge - they all have the same level of depth. But every dozen interviews or so you get someone who really knows Javascript and certain frameworks backwards and forwards. People who know more than you. When you are interviewed, you should write down the answers afterwards and honestly ask yourself if you explained things clearly and in depth. Honestly, you should be able to knock every question you are asked out of the park with a very in-depth and clear answer. Because there are people who are being interviewed who can do this. Giving some sort of half-answer where I know you know it a little, and then missing a few questions doesn't cut it - because most other Javascript programmers with your experience can do the same. Knowing this cold is what puts you above the pack.

Insofar as personality - it depends on the company, the people and how badly they need someone. Most of the time, if your technical skills are one standard deviation above the norm, and your personality is normal, we usually offer the job. I've interviewed people with very strong technical skills but their social skills were not just slightly poor but very poor. They continued answering questions after being told several times that their answer was sufficient, and continued talking even after being told "OK, stop talking"! (obviously things had become a little bizarre on their end when we the interviewers felt we had to tell someone "stop talking" - which they ignored, and continued talking!) Or people who were great technically but seemed very angry and had their arms folded in front of their chest the entire interview, and made a kind of sarcastic grunt after each question. Actually I would have even hired that person, but my boss torpedoed him and I wasn't surprised. I mean, I myself have made a faux pas when I have gone on an interview - but at least I knew from the interviewer's reaction that I had made one! Some people seem oblivious.

Another thing - just hit up everywhere. Put your resume on Linkedin, look on Stackoverflow careers, Craigslist jobs board, angel.co jobs, whatever people do in Europe (and also look for remote Javascript positions in San Francisco and elsewhere). Jobs aren't always posted everywhere - if there is a Javascript meetup or jQuery meetup in, say, Berlin, their mailing list might have job postings you can't find elsewhere. See where people are meeting up in your city, or nearby cities, to talk about jQuery or Javascript or full stack web development. Go out, talk to people. Pass out your business card. If you don't have one, make one, they're not expensive, you can make them same day if necessary at some local print shops. Your best resource is often letting programmers you already know know you're on the market. Some of this is for future reference though - one reason it's good to keep in touch with people once in a while is so you're not only contacting them when you want a favor. Not that them possibly getting a referral bonus for their big company hiring you is exactly that much of a favor.

For the longer term (not now), if you think not having a CS degree is blocking you, you might think about getting one, perhaps at night. It helps in a number of ways - human resources prefers hearing you're halfway to having a CS degree to not having one. It also gives you a technical foundation - you'll learn things like what is first normal form, second normal form, third normal form etc. are if you don't already know. Also you meet people and your network can grow - again, that depends on you meeting people and keeping in touch.

Another longer term thing - I am an Android programmer. Android was first released in 2008, but even in 2011 the local Android meetings were pretty empty - we could all sit down at a table in a local bar. Now local Android meetings sometimes have dozens, if not hundreds of attendees. I picked a new technology stack which took off (one billion Android phones sold last year). Lots of companies are looking for senior Android people with a lot of experience, but the only people they have to choose from are those handful people who were sitting around the local Android meetup table in 2011. Whereas Javascript is 20 years old and Javascript programmers are a bit more a dime a dozen. The thing though is - there are a lot of local programmers who write Java web backend programs (for Tomcat, or Wildfly/JBoss). They have a solid job, so why change. Over the past few years, web has been fading a little, and native iOS and Android have been rising. It is still to the extent that it is too early to put much weight to it. It's understandable why someone making $120k a year or more with a lot of Java web work around might not take the risk of jumping to an Android job. Why they wouldn't play around with it as a side project is more of a mystery - this is where they start to get into your situation. Because I can tell you, the middle-aged go-getter guys from our local Java group are always working with the cutting edge so they don't fall behind. They're working with Android Tango at the moment, which even I feel is too far ahead of the curve for me. Although maybe if I was smart I'd order those $500 tablets and start tinkering with them.

You were too complacent over the last decade - it should be obvious to you know. It's not fatal as times are good. When you get your next job, you have to make an effort to get a diploma, keep up with the latest technology, keep in touch with people and so forth, or you'll be in a worse situation next time around.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that 40-50% of places are rejecting you because of your lack of degree? Do they say this outright in their rejection emails? What's your overall rejection rate? I don't even get a timely response (within a month of application) to 50% of the positions I apply for. That's why it's absolutely essential to be able to apply to places in bulk - have a cover letter and resume that are just generic enough to…

> How do you know that 40-50% of places are rejecting you because of your lack of degree? Do they say this outright in their rejection emails? What's your overall rejection rate? 1) I received several requests for an updated resume with a degree. 2) I was pulled aside in one interview and told I couldn't get what I was asking without a degree. So, out of the people that I got a rejection reason for, basically. Last J…

Wow, that's harsh. I'm sorry to hear you've met with such rejection. But I guess that's the difference between a hard requirement and a soft requirement on a job posting - you can usually fudge or talk your way around a soft requirement, but not a hard requirement.

Additionally, I've estimated that 30-40% of places I've interviewed don't really know what position they're hiring someone for; or they aren't serious about hiring and are just testing the waters to see how good their employees are. Maybe for you that's closer to 5-10%? It sounds like you get a lot more informative responses than I get. (But I'm in system & network administration and virtualization, not software development)

For the 6 that would have taken you for $10k less, that sounds like negotiation. Why didn't you take those jobs? Were you offered more elsewhere at the same time?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#285
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the rationale for that? Clearance is surely a lot of work to obtain, but that's what the cost of the investigation should offset. I would think even with clearance you can't actually get information you don't need to know, such as information on a project you're not working on.

The rationale is to minimize the number of clearances. Even though you can't get information without a need-to-know, the government still likes to limit the number of clearances.

That still isn't a rationale; that's a stated requirement, but what problem is actually solved by limiting clearances?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#286

> I would argue that the outcome of hiring an Unemployable Programmer might in fact be better overall, because we're motivated and we get stuff done - as opposed to the hipster "rockstar" programmer we actually do eat and breathe code. It's odd that the author seems convinced that they are more productive than 'hipster rockstar programmers' who aren't motivated and don't get stuff done. Isn't that what they do by def…

I think the author brings up a few valid points but totally agreed, they think they are more productive than the "hipster "rockstar" programmer" while in the same breath saying they have been wasting life away at a desk for 10 years.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence the reason I said "web and mobile development-centric" in the post that started this sub-thread. I'm actually writing a UI in Angular right now or a Java-based system I wrote. I hate it. It is a pain I'm going through because I need a UI for this prototype, but there is no way I would want to do this full-time.

Let me put it like this: If you're an unemployed developer writing sob-story posts about how it's impossible to find a job, I'm going to assume that you're not wedded to a particular tech stack and are willing to work on the technologies that are in-demand.

Absolutely. If I found myself out on the street tomorrow I would suck it up and take an Angular job if it came along. Beggars can't be choosers. In fact, I'm glad I have that flexibility if I really need it someday.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#288
post #225

One reason I stayed in finance is that the programming scene is very fragmented. Some people say everybody that can do a print "hi" gets a job, yet many job advertisements come with increasing requirements. Startups keep looking for the 0.1%, whatever that means, that tells me that there is, indeed, strong competition for candidates (and that I have a 99.9% chance of not getting any job in those startups). Finally, a…

> yet many job advertisements come with increasing requirements.

I think you shouldn't really take these at face value. If you can give any justification why you can cross off one or two of these, that should probably be enough to get you an interview.

> hus, I am also not clear how real is to have one of those $100k+ salaries just doing "normal" coding (no managerial stuff). If that were possible and achievable even in a 3 years span, I'd definitely jump into it, but reality tells me it's not.

I got one of those. No managerial stuff (though also not purely coding, also systems engineering. But a purely engineering job), right out of University, with a math degree and I wouldn't consider myself especially capable. I'd say it's definitely possible with a degree and a degree should be within the advertised three-year range if you are borderline competent (most people at my university aren't and they are still getting their degree).

To be fair: You have to take into account where you are going to work. A friend of mine is also getting around 50k in Hamburg, I am moving to switzerland for my job. There is a huge difference in pay based on location.

I definitely think that "just coding" isn't enough. Employers are looking for a degree for a reason, there are certain skills you will probably not learn when "just coding", like abstract thinking, algorithmic analysis and stuff like that. And you will find tons of people bitching at University about how that is totally irrelevant to a software job, so we shouldn't learn it. But you should.

All of that being said: I doubt you will make significantly more money than in the finance industry. From what I've heard, if you want to make real money, work for a bank. Finance vs. SWE is definitely a lifestyle-choice, not primarily a money one :)

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#289

I see this as a result of two problems: 1: We expect everything to be perfectly packaged and ready to go, including people. We aren't interested in investing in people. A cog is a cog. 2: Older programmers are more expensive (see: skilled), and are more likely to have families or obligations that prevent their hustle (see: working bullshit hours for free).

Depends on the company. My current company does invest in developers. Especially at the junior level where there is a lot to teach, but at all the levels effort and investment is made in individuals. From books, classes, pair programming, etc. Taking the long outlook and investing in individuals knowing that the payoff is going to be in a few years works from what I have seen.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have friends who are devs and hiring managers (several of whom have no degrees, even) in many cities -- Detroit, Columbus, Portland, Chicago, SF -- and the same thing is true in all those places. If you live in a small town, I can believe that the opportunities are limited, but in basically any metro area of any size, it's a developers' market.

Well, I live in Dallas. I have been fishing in Dallas and Austin over the past several months and can't get any interviews. I would like to know where all these "desperate" companies are and what domains they are in.

I am a dev in Dallas and I am constantly inundated w/ recruiters to the point of annoyance. Based on my friends' anecdotal management/employer-side stories across several Dallas companies, it is definitely an employee market right now. Many companies are paying hefty salaries/bonuses to move people in from out of state.
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