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Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

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Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#281

Post by rmxt »

coldpie wrote: post #280
BrendanEich wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read my HN comments to authenticate my id. You're doing it again: equating pro-traditional-marriage with anti-gay with hate. The last bogus inference is the one that I called a non-issue.

You're right, I am equating those, because they are all equal. Whatever label you put on it, opposition to same-sex marriage makes the statement that you believe that love between same-sex couples is inferior to that between opposite-sex couples; that you need to ensure your children grow up to have that same belief; that homosexuals are something to disapprove of, something to fear; that you have a deep fear of your…

I find the arguments made on this page to be skeevy and dehumanizing to those that fall outside gender norms, but I'm posting it so to save you from wasting anymore electrons back and forth:

http://discussingmarriage.org/

Those are the "best" and least bigoted arguments that the "con-" side can muster.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#282

Post by BrendanEich »

coldpie wrote: post #280
BrendanEich wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read my HN comments to authenticate my id. You're doing it again: equating pro-traditional-marriage with anti-gay with hate. The last bogus inference is the one that I called a non-issue.

You're right, I am equating those, because they are all equal. Whatever label you put on it, opposition to same-sex marriage makes the statement that you believe that love between same-sex couples is inferior to that between opposite-sex couples; that you need to ensure your children grow up to have that same belief; that homosexuals are something to disapprove of, something to fear; that you have a deep fear of your…

Mozilla Corporation employees did not express disapproval while I was still CEO, and nothing from employees resulted in me leaving. When I had to tell key LGBT supporters I was resigning, they were aghast and asked me not to step down (from CEO; this was before it was clear that I was resigning from Mozilla).

You're still in that echo chamber. I can get some sounds in, but they're distorted and attenuated. Here's one loud clue: marriage as a legally regulated institution has nothing to do with "love", or (contra Kennedy for the majority) "self expression". If that were all that's involved in marriage, it should not be subject to state coercion at all.

I'll leave it at that, and thank rmxt for dropping a link.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#283

Post by BrendanEich »

sonnyp wrote: post #86
oso2k wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. And I extend that sentiment to their approach to Web Standards a few years ago too, like WebSQL [0] and NaCl [1], Dart [2]. That felt like NIH [3] or some other non-collaborative or ultra-competitive motivation on their part. Not a place of "speak for the Web". IMO, the choice of IndexedDB over WebSQL set the Web back 20 years. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_SQL_Database [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

About WebSQL Firefox already had (and still has) Sqlite dependency (it is uses for bookmarks, history, ...) it is not the issue. The problem is that the Web SQL standard states "User agents must implement the SQL dialect supported by Sqlite 3.6.19." [0] which made agents rely on a outdated dependency and non standard (sqlite is not SQL ansible compatible) SQL. A nightmare for Web standards. They made the right (and h…

Just wanted to note that all of Apple, Google, Microsoft and Mozilla are working on WebAssembly, see https://github.com/WebAssembly/design.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#284

Post by [deleted] »

sonnyp wrote: post #86
oso2k wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. And I extend that sentiment to their approach to Web Standards a few years ago too, like WebSQL [0] and NaCl [1], Dart [2]. That felt like NIH [3] or some other non-collaborative or ultra-competitive motivation on their part. Not a place of "speak for the Web". IMO, the choice of IndexedDB over WebSQL set the Web back 20 years. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_SQL_Database [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

About WebSQL Firefox already had (and still has) Sqlite dependency (it is uses for bookmarks, history, ...) it is not the issue. The problem is that the Web SQL standard states "User agents must implement the SQL dialect supported by Sqlite 3.6.19." [0] which made agents rely on a outdated dependency and non standard (sqlite is not SQL ansible compatible) SQL. A nightmare for Web standards. They made the right (and h…

[deleted]

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#285

Post by coldpie »

BrendanEich wrote: post #282
coldpie wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, I am equating those, because they are all equal. Whatever label you put on it, opposition to same-sex marriage makes the statement that you believe that love between same-sex couples is inferior to that between opposite-sex couples; that you need to ensure your children grow up to have that same belief; that homosexuals are something to disapprove of, something to fear; that you have a deep fear of your…

Mozilla Corporation employees did not express disapproval while I was still CEO, and nothing from employees resulted in me leaving. When I had to tell key LGBT supporters I was resigning, they were aghast and asked me not to step down (from CEO; this was before it was clear that I was resigning from Mozilla). You're still in that echo chamber. I can get some sounds in, but they're distorted and attenuated. Here's one…

All right. Keep hurting people for no reason, I guess. I hope it at least makes you happy, so someone is benefitting from the needless harm.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#286

Post by BrendanEich »

coldpie wrote: post #285
BrendanEich wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla Corporation employees did not express disapproval while I was still CEO, and nothing from employees resulted in me leaving. When I had to tell key LGBT supporters I was resigning, they were aghast and asked me not to step down (from CEO; this was before it was clear that I was resigning from Mozilla). You're still in that echo chamber. I can get some sounds in, but they're distorted and attenuated. Here's one…

All right. Keep hurting people for no reason, I guess. I hope it at least makes you happy, so someone is benefitting from the needless harm.

Who was hurt by law?

Remember, CA had its equivalent version of statutory marriage, called civil unions in other jurisdictions and called Domestic Partner law in CA.

Mark Leno among others said D.P. law was good enough, both when it passed and as amended. I agreed eventually, and stood firm. Fat lot of good that did me.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#287

Post by hueving »

cyphax wrote: post #195
keithpeter wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But other people felt the look was dated, and well over-due for a refresh. I guess the Firefox developers were in that group." Is the UI of a piece of software actually a fashion statement? Should these decisions not be evidence based in some way? (I use Firefox 39 on Linux and have no strong opinions either way - just interested in the process)

I don't know if you're willing to consider it evidence, but I think Apple's success is in large part due to their software and their UI's. iOs in particular. Also, user interfaces might be closer to fashion than you would think! If you consider Windows XP's look. Imagine Windows 10 looking like that. Or consider Windows 8's different looks compared to Windows 7's. Or Google "material design" on Android Lollipop. Dang…

cargo culting. Apple's software takes usability into account though and then polishes the look. Mozilla skipped the usability step.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#288

Post by coldpie »

BrendanEich wrote: post #286
coldpie wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All right. Keep hurting people for no reason, I guess. I hope it at least makes you happy, so someone is benefitting from the needless harm.

Who was hurt by law? Remember, CA had its equivalent version of statutory marriage, called civil unions in other jurisdictions and called Domestic Partner law in CA. Mark Leno among others said D.P. law was good enough, both when it passed and as amended. I agreed eventually, and stood firm. Fat lot of good that did me.

LGBT youth are twice as likely as hetero students to attempt suicide. http://www.cdc.gov/lgbthealth/youth.htm

Members of the LGBT community are about 150% as likely as heteros to smoke. http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/groups/lgbt.html

Without access to marriage and the rights it brings, children of same-sex couples had to go through legal ordeals, facing orphanage, if their biological parent dies despite another (now single) parent being available.

Other marriage benefits, especially hospital visitation and rights after a partner's death, weren't conferred to partners as they weren't legally recognized.

Civil unions were obviously at best a stepping stone. "Separate but equal" does not have a good history in this country.

You've heard these arguments before,

> Fat lot of good that did me.

so tell us. How have you been harmed by gay marriage's legalization?

In what way does your objection to your employees' having rights not disqualify you from the CEO position?

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#289

Post by DonHopkins »

notsony wrote: post #253
DonHopkins wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop trying to rewrite history. Brendan Eich decided to leave on his own, in spite of the fact that they tried to get him to stay.

Nonsense. He was forced out. Forced to resign. How hard is that to understand?

But thanks for the opportunity to correct the misinformation you were spreading. Now please stop repeating things you now know are not true.

I doubt Brendan intended for you to stop using Mozilla Firefox to avenge his resignation, which he did voluntarily against the wishes of the board.

In fact, I suspect Brendan voluntarily resigned in order to LIMIT the damage he was causing to Mozilla's reputation and user base, which he cares about.

So I'd guess he's probably not happy about social injustice warriors boycotting Mozilla on his behalf.

Again, I encourage you to seek clarity instead of spreading misinformation: Why don't you ask him?

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#290

Post by BrendanEich »

coldpie wrote: post #288
BrendanEich wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who was hurt by law? Remember, CA had its equivalent version of statutory marriage, called civil unions in other jurisdictions and called Domestic Partner law in CA. Mark Leno among others said D.P. law was good enough, both when it passed and as amended. I agreed eventually, and stood firm. Fat lot of good that did me.

LGBT youth are twice as likely as hetero students to attempt suicide. http://www.cdc.gov/lgbthealth/youth.htm Members of the LGBT community are about 150% as likely as heteros to smoke. http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/groups/lgbt.html Without access to marriage and the rights it brings, children of same-sex couples had to go through legal ordeals, facing orphanage, if their biological parent dies despite ano…

Way to mix up unrelated issues there!

I agree on empirical suicide risks for people outside various norms. Prop 8 and marriage as regulated by law had ~zero to do with that. Canada and The Netherlands provide a decade+ data showing how little correlation. Look into it before spouting off to me.

Other marriage benefits, indeed all the ones also granted by the state of California to Domestic Partners, are not material. There are non-sexual relationships among long-term (grand-) mother/daughter and friendship-based dyads who deserved those positive rights. Shame on the majority in past decades for yoking these to marriage, but they also do not argue in the least for redefining marriage from its heteronormative (cis- or trans-, note well) basis.

You like to argue post-hoc about "a stepping stone", but that's not forthright. At the time, from Mark Leno et al., there was no such talk. It was a bait and switch as @JVLast wrote (http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/you-will-be-assimilat...).

How am I harmed? The pretext for my leaving Mozilla was the outrage/status-display campaign, even if that can't possibly explain all the facts. In your view, I was harmed, and justly so -- but people disagree on justice, so in general, by your own rubriks, I was harmed.

(In case you are unaware, google CA 1101-1102 statutes. These were based on case law starting from "Gay Law Students v. Pacific Telephone & Telegraph".)

Beyond me, you already have telegraphed that it's un-PC, and possibly punishable by the full (lethal) force of the state, for someone like a creative/discretionary small business owner (baker, florist, printer, etc.) to demur from your point of view. And you've said it's hateful for parents to want to protect their children from propaganda.

Go on, prove me wrong: do you think there should be no legal sanction against bakers, florists, printers, restaurants, private schools, small businesses, and parents? Note the case law on side of printers, e.g., who need not be compelled to print materials to which they object. Note well this protects LGBT-owned print-shops.

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