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Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

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Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#281

Post by darkroasted »

beat wrote: post #278
darkroasted wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a structural issue and is very hard to fix. Men, everywhere, do what is needed to get sex. If women and the institutions of society do not require a commitment from the man in order to have children, then men will not give such a commitment. Why would they? But traditionally it is the father who restricts access to his daughter, or trains his daughter not to open up so easily. So fatherlessness begets fatherless…

If you think fathers control the sexuality of their teenage daughters, you've obviously never raised one!

They used to have a lot more control, now barely any. Hence the rising illegitimacy rates across the board, for all races.

Shared environment still matters a lot. One father has a limited impact on his own daughter. But if the community has lots of fathers, all telling their daughters the same thing, and so your daughter has friends who all view it as low-status to have children at 16, then she will be a lot more likely to wait on having kids until marriage.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#282

Post by dragonwriter »

gknoy wrote: post #248
MrZongle2 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America and Americans (myself included) are full of inconsistencies and contradictions, but then I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a country that couldn't be described similarly to some degree. My point is that I take issue with Americans being painted with a big, wide brush of "compassionless" when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Is there perhaps less compassion or concern (in general) directed towa…

In the context of the justice system, I think we tend to lack compassion. Most of the Americans I know (family, etc) seem more intent on __retribution__ and punishing Bad People, rather than compassion. Once someone is a Bad Person (criminal, poor, or even just someone they don't like), compassion seems to go out the window.

> Once someone is a Bad Person (criminal, poor, or even just someone they don't like), compassion seems to go out the window.

More importantly, being a member of some group that is unliked, often because of the actions of some individual(s) that aren't really general to the group, is enough to make someone a Bad Person in many people's eyes.

Even being supported by a person who is viewed as a Bad Person (potentially for the same reason described in the preceding paragraph) is enough to make a person a Bad Person.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#283

Post by netfire »

beat wrote: post #263
netfire wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say its a myth, but then don't provide not explanation as to why. I guess I don't understand how race-restricted aid isn't racial. By restricting assistance, scholarships and other aid to a particular race aren't you in essence saying that you care more about helping people of a certain race than you do about helping people of other races? If a person is in the same circumstances, economic or otherwise, as anothe…

I'm saying that there isn't any race-restricted aid. You're saying there is. You're wrong about that. Feel free to prove otherwise. And sure, you can bring up some scholarship as an exception that proves the rule (I wonder how Daughters of the American Revolution scholarships fit?). But that's a very weak argument. I'm talking about the welfare state in general, and it is pointedly not about race.

I didn't mean to imply that there was government sponsored aid that was race-restricted. There definitely is for scholarships[1] and affirmative action policies for admission to schools or specific programs in those schools. (although that's not necessarily monetary aid)

Some quick googling shows results of what appears to be private organizations solely focused on providing assistance to african americans or people of african descent. [2]

[1] - https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarsh... [2] http://www.diversitybestpractices.com/news-articles/20-afric...

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#284

Post by darkroasted »

temujin wrote: post #265
lars wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drug war is part of it. But the big thing to fix is income inequality. High income inequality is correlated with higher homicide rate, higher robbery rate, lower civic participation, higher mortality, lower social cohesion and lower well-being in children. So many social problems are strongly predicted by this variable, yet many refuse to consider inequality to be a problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_…

In the US, yes. In China, not so much. For all the correlations which are greatly attenuated in China, it is safe to conclude that inequality is not a significant cause of the corresponding phenomenon; instead, causation goes the other direction and/or a third factor causes both.

Also Edwardian England is a compelling counter-example. Read "The Classic Slum" by Robert Roberts. British society around 1900 was massively unequal and lots of people were desperately poor. But their homicide rates were 100X lower than the rates seen in the contemporary ghetto. The poor working class areas of England during that period had intact families, schools that provided discipline, strict policing, and strong institutions.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#285

Post by richmarr »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #182
rmxt wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really equating the plight and histories of Asian-Americans and African-Americans in America over the past 3 centuries? You can do that with a straight face? Hint: one history includes codified discrimination until ~50 years ago and legal enslavement until ~150 years ago and the other one doesn't. Well, I'll give you that Asian Americans faced codified discrimination into the 20th century, but don't overlook…

I must point out that, by insisting on tying this to race, this discussion has quickly degenerated into "Who's been discriminated against the most?" which has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the criminal justice system in general is screwed up. Most all of us agree that something must be done. Do you want to gather together to fix it, or spend time in endless identity politics? I mean, even if you're "right…

@rmxt may or may not be right, personally I think he is, but stating outright that segregation (within living memory) has "exactly nothing" to do with the current state of criminal justice is clearly a hasty statement... that given a moment to think about I'm sure you'd take back, right?

...and if he is right, then the reason why he's right will be useful for solving the problem. It's pretty tough to solve a problem when you don't understand what caused it.

By the way, dismiss identity politics at your risk. It might be uncomfortable to talk about, but it underpins a lot of current affairs: crime, Russia, Gamergate, ISIS.

Recommend reading this. It's long, but worth every painful line: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/good-men-project/why-its-so-ha...

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#286

Post by MrZongle2 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #229
MrZongle2 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The United States has 5% of the world’s population but 25% of the world’s prisoners. This sums it up for me. Here in the United States, we do have issues with the justice and penal systems. But these number alone do not paint the full picture. In other countries, if you're convicted of a crime you may have a body part cut off. You may be executed. Or you may simply "disappear". In any of these cases, you're not con…

> In other countries, if you're convicted of a crime you may have a body part cut off. You may be executed. You can be executed in the US, too. In fact, the US executes more people per year than anyone but China and a handful of countries in the Middle East. So adding the possibility of execution into the comparison doesn't actually make the US look better.

"So adding the possibility of execution into the comparison doesn't actually make the US look better."

Apples and oranges. Consider this report: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/10/world/amnesty-international-de...

In 2012, the US executed 43 people. The number of executions in China? Believed to be in the thousands.

How did the condemned in the United States die? Here's the breakdown: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/methods-execution . Note that all of these individuals were afforded appeals and legal representation.

Some of the other countries? Maybe no trial at all. Maybe a completely rigged trial. Appeals? Doubtful but short. Time between being charged with the crime and execution? Perhaps days, as opposed to years in the United States. The method of execution? Anything goes; in North Korea the Kim regime has become especially creative here, dropping mortars and using AA guns to kill prisoners.

Is the U.S. justice system faulty? Yes. Can one make a compelling argument against the death penalty? Probably. Can an honest argument be made that the United States and China (let alone some of the other countries on the list) are even in the same league? Doubtful.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#287

Post by darkroasted »

DanBC wrote: post #193
blazespin wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a race issue. This is an inner city culture problem. Ending the drug war is a first step. But we still have to give these kids something to do. Pay them to go to school.

>This is not a race issue. This is an inner city culture problem. You realise that racist policies around suburb building and home loans cause the inner cities to be mostly black? White people got cheap home loans to move into nice neighbourhoods. And that's one of the reason people are calling it a race issue.

What makes a white neighborhood more "nice" than black neighborhoods, outside of the crime rate or the people that live there? Why is Roxbury/Dorchester in Boston "less nice" than Saugus? Dorchester has great homes, near a nice park, has great access to the subway that goes downtown. Why is 50th and Baltimore in Philadelphia "less nice" than Norristown? 50th and Baltimore has great parks, great homes, great public transit access to downtown. If it is the people that live there that make a neighborhood good or bad, than to blame segregation or red lining for bad neighborhoods is to beg the question.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#288

Post by MrZongle2 »

njharman wrote: post #223
MrZongle2 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The drug war is a symptom of something more basic: Americans lack compassion." Really? http://www.nptrust.org/philanthropic-resources/charitable-gi...

I would argue that most people contribute out of guilt rather than compassion.

[Citation needed]

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#289

Post by MrZongle2 »

the_imp wrote: post #226
MrZongle2 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The United States has 5% of the world’s population but 25% of the world’s prisoners. This sums it up for me. Here in the United States, we do have issues with the justice and penal systems. But these number alone do not paint the full picture. In other countries, if you're convicted of a crime you may have a body part cut off. You may be executed. Or you may simply "disappear". In any of these cases, you're not con…

> In other countries, if you're convicted of a crime you may have a body part cut off. You may be executed. Or you may simply "disappear". In any of these cases, you're not considered a prisoner. But are those really the countries you would like the USA to be compared with?

Right or wrong, when it comes to incarceration and execution rates, we are compared with these other countries.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#290

Post by bambax »

ams6110 wrote: post #114
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

> we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and throwing them in jail

And that's exactly what you're doing.

Using drugs or selling drugs should not be a reason to put someone in jail.

Tobacco, alcohol or sugar (HFCS) do MUCH more harm to users than illegal substances ever will, and cost much more to society as a result.

> behaviors and responsibilities that are required to be a productive and self-supporting member of society

Define "productive".

If you sell illegal substances at a profit, how aren't you "self-supporting"??

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