“Today we moved into our new Facebook building” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#281

Post by Iftheshoefits » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:54 AM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #188

fsk wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The offensive part is the people who say that open offices are MORE EFFICIENT than a traditional office. I have a hard time believing that one. Given how high programmer salaries are, the productivity loss due to open offices is almost definitely more than the office space savings. It seems like an introvert/extrovert thing. The introverts would prefer a quiet working space (and they're usually the best workers), but…

I love how $100 billion companies with a hair (~11%) shy pf a billion - a billion users, active, d-a-i-l-y and run by 9,199 employees (for a company value of $1 million per empoyee down to every last employee including someone taking out the trash, and likewise meaning each and every last employee has whole army divisions, a hundred thousand users, they account for --) - suddenly doesn't know as much - to an OFFENSIV…

You haven't established the link between wealth and an understanding of productivity so much as asserted that wealth is a proxy for knowledge/intelligence.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#282

Post by sytelus » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:56 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #275

sytelus wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having spent almost equal amount of time in open office and private office, my own anecdote is that productivity wasn't dramatically better with private offices. In open offices, I just used to put head phones on, listen to non-vocal music and be super focused for many hours. In fact that was much better than private office because others would see you wearing headphone and they don't want to bother you. In private o…

> When people see their teams working hard around them, they > have little excuse not to follow the suit. > In private offices... ...most people are actually fairly > weak against distractions generated from their own computer I think this is true. When left totally to my own with medium-term or long-term deadlines it's hard to resist the pull of distractions on the web. But that is also fairly easily mitigated with…

Having been scrum master myself at different times, you would be surprised how many times people outright lie "What did you do yesterday" part. They are not necessarily evil or lazy or stupid. It's becoming just super hard for people to be disciplined and stay away from distractions from so many things. Comparatively, distractions by people around in open offices is nothing.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#283

Post by sgift » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:57 AM UTC

reedlaw wrote: post #251

qq66 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counterpoint, I recently moved from an open-plan office to a private office at Microsoft, and I definitely prefer the open plan. I feel more energized in an open plan, and I now make it a point to walk around the halls and drop in on people who are open to it (green status light on the door).

Sounds like a win-win to me. You can drop in on people who welcome interruptions and others can get their work done.

And people can change the status according to their current needs without any hassle. Perfect.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#284

Post by nilkn » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:01 AM UTC

ctvo wrote: post #172

nilkn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose I really don't understand your argument. You're suggesting that someone in a position to strive for more shouldn't do so because there are other people who aren't in such a position? If nobody tries to raise the standard, then it will never be raised. Based on his other posts, this guy is the CTO of a small startup. Maybe in a year or two he'll be hiring and providing these benefits to others. How's that a…

The problem with the list is the attitude. I would rather not work with people who have lists like this. I'm not a special snowflake. I like solving problems and doing meaningful work that contributes to the well being of others in some way. Those are my only requirements. Everything else is flexible. And the list reads like a tour rider ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider_%28theater%29 ), not some attempt at advanc…

I completely understand where you're coming from. I've had a coworker like that before and it can be a real downer to be around someone who just seems like nothing is ever quite good enough.

I guess I was trying to give the person the benefit of the doubt and not assume that he's like that on the job. Maybe he is. But he also might just be picky about where he works but great once he's made a decision. I guess I don't see the point of worrying about which way it is because it doesn't matter -- his point is only to list red flags about companies that he's built from experience, and I see value in sharing that with others.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#285

Post by sgift » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:09 AM UTC

eyeareque wrote: post #271

fsk wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The offensive part is the people who say that open offices are MORE EFFICIENT than a traditional office. I have a hard time believing that one. Given how high programmer salaries are, the productivity loss due to open offices is almost definitely more than the office space savings. It seems like an introvert/extrovert thing. The introverts would prefer a quiet working space (and they're usually the best workers), but…

It is more efficient because you can tell when people are at their desk or not, which adds accountability, maybe?

Sure, now you know when people are at their desks, which is irrelevant. You want to know when people work and that doesn't follow from "is at the desk".

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#286

Post by sgift » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:14 AM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #188

fsk wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The offensive part is the people who say that open offices are MORE EFFICIENT than a traditional office. I have a hard time believing that one. Given how high programmer salaries are, the productivity loss due to open offices is almost definitely more than the office space savings. It seems like an introvert/extrovert thing. The introverts would prefer a quiet working space (and they're usually the best workers), but…

I love how $100 billion companies with a hair (~11%) shy pf a billion - a billion users, active, d-a-i-l-y and run by 9,199 employees (for a company value of $1 million per empoyee down to every last employee including someone taking out the trash, and likewise meaning each and every last employee has whole army divisions, a hundred thousand users, they account for --) - suddenly doesn't know as much - to an OFFENSIV…

Congratulations, you just attributed luck to skill and established that when you had luck you somehow have any idea what you are doing. Nokia was very big once. Was.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#287

Post by megablast » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:16 AM UTC

Tiksi wrote: post #244

calinet6 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extrovert here, former introvert (yeah, it's not fixed). I appreciate the defense against what is at the very least a statement of extreme arrogance by the GP. I love a quiet workspace, and I also enjoy an open office plan. There's a need for the advantages of both environments—the ease of collaboration and the focused heads-down time—which is why this is such a difficult discussion to have.

>Extrovert here, former introvert (yeah, it's not fixed). Off topic, but how did you "convert"? Was it a conscious effort or did it just seem to happen? I ask mostly because I had a period of a few years where I felt like I leaned closer to extroversion, but now I'm pretty firmly an introvert, and I'd like to be able to push it back to the other side, but can't quite figure out how exactly to do that. As far as offic…

Probably someone just throwing the words introvert and extrovert around.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#288

Post by sgift » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:21 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #174

Touche wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Given how high programmer salaries are This myth persists huh.

Ever seen what normal people make? It's a pittance in comparison.

That depends on who is your measure for normal in comparison to programmers: Lawyers? Doctors? Waiters? Cleaners? After that is decided we can check whether you or the GP post is more correct.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#289

Post by kzhahou » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:29 AM UTC

myhf wrote: post #181

dismal2 wrote: post #100

Not being snide, but I REALLY do want to see a picture of a work desk (imagine it would be one of those standing/sitting electronic ones) and a chair and a computer! Or is that confidential info?

http://i.imgur.com/20rCfSM.jpg

Humor prohibited.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#290

Post by choppaface » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:30 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #240

choppaface wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked in an exclusively open format office and it can be hard at times. Ideally you can find 2-3 spots to work: your desk near your team, a reliably (tho perhaps non-reservable) quiet spot for focusing, and an (perhaps unreliable) quiet spot for super privacy (e.g. a conference room ). The most damaging part of the open format (for me) is that extroverted ops folk would fight fires all day and make tons of nois…

I like your 3-spot system, but JohnBooty is actually describing a 3-spot system too. He's just saying he wants to spend the majority of his time in the "quiet focus" spot rather than the "team collaboration" spot. That's really the issue here: what should your default zone be? I like your suggestion that the default location for your desk should be in the collaborative spot. Cornell studied this a few years back and…

Most of the quieter teams (e.g. the algorithms and data people) ended up with extra empty desks between them. This space enhanced privacy, encouraged quietness, and left room for interns when the summer came.

I actually would not necessarily recommend "defaulting" to the collaborative desk space. When I moved to a quiet space for a quarter, I was measurably more productive-- among other things I wrote almost twice as many ksloc.

If you want your engineers to excel, I think it's critical to have both strong collaborative and quiet places. During the first quarter or ramp-up, the collaborative space usually makes a good default. New grads will probably do well in shared space for the first 6-12 months. Beyond that, there needs to be quasi-offices (especially for ICs who have naturally introverted temperments). Personally I think it's helpful to put everybody through both arrangements because it encourages people to adapt and diversify in their communication modes and contributor roles.

My guess is that open seating at Facebook fits their core culture, and that open seating isn't necessarily a great fit for every team. If everybody puts on their noise-cancelling headphones and listens to a loop of crickets chirping (seriously this is what my colleagues did) then you need more space and/or need to rethink your layout.