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What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

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Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#281

Post by theorique »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #135
vilda wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the typical conflict between liberals and left wings in politics. The conflict between freedom and "good". In this case freedom of artistic expression on one side, and anti-sexualism of women (unisex) on other side.

>> "In this case freedom of artistic expression on one side, and anti-sexualism of women (unisex) on other side." To be clear I would never advocate against artistic freedom. The problem is with the big comic book companies. They should make the decision that they aren't going to sexualise women in comics for no good reason anymore. The artists who truly enjoy making that work can continue to do so at another company…

It kind of sounds like you're arguing against artistic freedom within big companies, though. As in, weird little shops can do "sexy" publications. However, once a company is "big" it "should make the decision that they aren't going to sexualise women in comics for no good reason"?

But why should this depend on the size of the company? Either companies should be able to sell a product (it is acceptable to the community, culture, standards, etc), or else they should not.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#282

Post by Fomite »

johnchristopher wrote: post #50

That feels weird to me because I like comics (I am from Europe, so "european comics" is a weird name for what I'd roughly translate to `Drawn stories` or `graphic novels`) and there are a lot of interesting indie or ya comics out there ( edit : I mean, in the US too). I suppose comics bookstore are just dump ground for Marvel/DC/Images/DH production of the week ? For a 8-12 years-old, of the top of my mind: http://ww…

Mouse Guard was the first one that came up for me too. As a bonus, it's also got an RPG.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#283

Post by Fomite »

scott_s wrote: post #215
misterdai wrote: post #90

While I can understand how part of his post is about the way women are portrayed physically in those comics. I'm not so sure on his examples he picked in reference to his children and their unsuitability. I already commented on how I wasn't sure if Batman was suitable for his 5 year old, given the nature of some lines, but some examples he picked in reference to his 7 year old daughter were a stretch. Power Girl: Hav…

I think you're missing the point: his daughter knows those characters through pop culture. She wants to read those comics. But the art for those comics is clearly telling her: you are not our audience. And this is most of the store. The male characters are male power fantasies, and appeal to his son. But the female characters are not female power fantasies, meant to appeal to women. They are male idealized-woman fant…

Exactly. Men in comics are male power fantasies. Women in comics are also male fantasies. The message that these kinds of covers send to his daughter, or women in general is "This is not for you".

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#284

Post by drzaiusapelord »

DanBC wrote: post #264
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with these dialogues. Often left-leaning types see them as justification for censorship and shaming when the real issue is market penetration and audience. I can walk my son through the girly section of 'toys r us' and see nothing but men represented as effeminate "prince" types who's only main motivation in life is finding a princess. The tumbler social justice warriors don't care about that, bein…

> The tumbler social justice warriors don't care about that Yes they do! People are constantly talking about the stupid gendering of toys that don't need to be gendered.

Generally, they talk about how its affects girls. My point is that flip-side (effeminate princes) is not a major social issue to them, the same way comic shops marketed and targeted to boys aren't a major issue to boys.

Now the "tough girl" trope is in full effect in fiction. If you portray a feminine girl in YA story you're going to deal with massive protests. We're going to look back at this period and wonder why we thought the Katnis Everdeening of all thing was a good idea and why we no longer have realistic girl characters. Unless they know kung-fu and are tough as nails they don't get published. This doesn't reflect real world girls at all.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#285

Post by drzaiusapelord »

ANTSANTS wrote: post #257
po wrote: post #12

I can already hear the debate raging about weather or not the images or particular examples in this article are acceptable or defensible or not. I think it's totally fine for the comics that this one shop has are there. Artistic freedom! Great! What's not super is that it's really the only kind. It's like netflix with only action movies. This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics that…

>Japanese manga is fully of sexy, weird, objectifying stuff that most people really wouldn't want their kids to see, but go to a bookstore in Japan and you'll also see bookcase after bookcase of manga totally appropriate for all ages with young girls pressing their nose into them. Stories about teenage girls getting picked on at school or trying to meet the right guy or saying stupid things in class. Stories about gi…

This is such a good post, its shameful the HN political correctness crowd have downvoted it so. I don't think HN is a mature enough forum for this discussion. Its just a reddit-like upvote/downvote gamificiation machine at this point.

I find it amusing that American culture dictates that once you become 18 you are now sexualized and free to partake of whatever media you like, but an hour before your birthday you are an asexual being with no interest in things other than what the political correct types dictate.

A lot of this stuff is aimed for the 14-18 group where puberty kicks in. Yes, there are boobs and bulging crotches! The characters sometimes have sex! I know, its crazy! It almost reflects the hormonal madness of puberty.

The problem is American culture is so damn puritanical that not only have we dismissed this kind of art as victimizing, if not illegal, that we pretend that the status quo of this level of censorship is fine. Puberty will find a way. Kids will date, fuck, get high, etc. Why our art needs to reflect some kind of Judeo-Christian 1950s ideal is beyond me. Heaven forbid kids that age are represented as how they truly are or art they want is aimed at them. Or that, heaven forbid to SJW types, that most people don't have a problem with traditional gender roles. A manga about a girl trying to get a boyfriend shouldn't cause a social catastrophe. Its fine.

I think this kind of thing is a legitimate social panic, the same way people were obsessed with Satanism in the 1980s. We're going to look back at these ultra-politically correct attitudes today and wonder why we were so worried about displaying traditional roles, sexuality, and violence in fiction.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#286

Post by yarou »

Fomite wrote: post #279
yarou wrote: post #276

Articles like this further reinforce that we have major issues here in America around sexuality. Why can't we teach our children that sexuality is a positive thing, not something that's akin to commiting a capital offense? When we reinforce the negative aspects of sexuality, that leads to abnormal behaviors like nymphomania and self-destructive tendencies. i understand that there are gender objectification issues, bu…

Because a great deal of this isn't just about "sexuality", and sexuality isn't necessarily a positive thing when the message to one gender is "You are an object to be enjoyed for another's pleasure" and to the other is "Objectify away! And if you don't, something is wrong with you." And no one here has suggested it's "akin to committing a capital offense" but you. "It would be nice to take my young daughter to do som…

You missed my point entirely. The reason why women are objectified is that sexuality is hidden in public in America. That's why hyper sexualized imagery exists in comic books and the like. This is a unique and peculiar American problem; posters from other countries don't have the same issues.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#287

Post by drzaiusapelord »

po wrote: post #60
facepalm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying you want quotas for comic shops? Why shouldn't they be allowed to just sell the things their customers actually buy? If somebody has a vision for a better comic shop, why not create one, instead of calling for rules and regulations? I suppose you could even apply to YC with the idea of launching a better comic book chain. Edit: since HN prevents me from commenting atm - sure, write more articles about…

1) no 2) they can, and I'm also free to make commentary about it 3) they can, and nowhere did I mention rules or regulations 4) You're right, I could. The only suggestion I made was that people should write more articles pointing out that there's a lot of potential for more types of comics. The medium is underused. I get the feeling you're replying to what others have said more than what I said.

> there's a lot of potential for more types of comics.

He said the same thing. Open your own shops and publishers. Problem is, no girls want to read your politicized feminist comics. Girls have their own thoughts and that causes a certain demand. That demand probably isn't large and historically girls mature earlier and are into reading novels (think YA and chick-lit) and comics don't provide something they aren't getting elsewhere.

I really hate how a lot of the people in this thread keep saying "oh fix it" and "display more comics." That is fucking regulation there. Right now comic stores sell what sells. This skirting of what you actually want to be done to get your outcome is weasel language. Apparently, starting yoru own store and publishers is too much work, but SJW'ing on HN is just fine. Nothing like low-effort whining eh?

Retail space is limited so the lowest common denominator items will be sold to maximize profit. Its not a conspiracy against your values. Its just business.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#288

Post by angersock »

jff wrote: post #269
angersock wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to have to second this. There's a whole range of comics catering to those more esoteric (and often quite boring, frankly) storylines, and a good many of them have books for sale. Check out Something Positive (terrible people), Stand Still, Stay Silent (kid friendly but a little dark, beautiful art), Dumbing of Age (ugh, but some people like it), Vattu (kid friendly, nice art, coming-of-age), Schlock Mercenary (…

Something Positive is a wall-of-text comic which, unfortunately also has very bad writing in its walls of text. I'm embarrassed to say I read the entire thing in high school in 2004, but in my defense I was starved for content and didn't know any better.

So, there's been 11 years of plot since then. But hey, that's cool, to each their own.

Re: What taking my daughter to a comic book store taught me

#289

Post by Fomite »

yarou wrote: post #286
Fomite wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a great deal of this isn't just about "sexuality", and sexuality isn't necessarily a positive thing when the message to one gender is "You are an object to be enjoyed for another's pleasure" and to the other is "Objectify away! And if you don't, something is wrong with you." And no one here has suggested it's "akin to committing a capital offense" but you. "It would be nice to take my young daughter to do som…

You missed my point entirely. The reason why women are objectified is that sexuality is hidden in public in America. That's why hyper sexualized imagery exists in comic books and the like. This is a unique and peculiar American problem; posters from other countries don't have the same issues.

I've traveled a good bit of the world, and lived in a number of non-American countries (including some where sexuality is more...upfront), and hyper-sexualized imagery of women, and the attendant problems, are hardly a uniquely American phenomenon.

It might be comforting to believe it to be so, but it's not. Hell, one of the most problematic comic covers I can think of in the most recent past wasn't even by an American artist.

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