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"Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

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Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's another facet to the argument he made that he didn't make. When you're in a position of power and you have to deal with the work of other people you want to waste as little time as possible on people making stupid mistakes that shouldn't be made in the first place. You want to bring the quality of your contributors up. One way of doing this is making people fear making mistakes. Society does this all…

Fear, as you seem to realize, is a crappy motivator. It only work in limited circumstances and for limited periods of time. It doesn't really change behavior permanently. That "society" does it doesn't make it any better (and when was the last time a judge cussed out a defendant for receiving a guilty verdict?) But I would argue that motivating through fear isn't even relevant to this situation. Is making death threa…

>Is making death threats in order to convince somebody to stop doing something a valid way to motivate through fear?

I don't remember Linus ever sending death threats to anyone. As for the people who did send it to the OP, I think most people agree that death threats are not OK under any circumstance and that whoever did do it is an outlier and not an example of how the community behaves.

>Is cursing somebody out on a mailing list really all that terrifying?

I think it is since public shaming tends to be effective in preventing whatever behavior was shamed, as per the racist/homophobe/sexist argument.

>If it is, is that the reason Linus, for instance, does it?

I can't speak for him but if I were in charge of an important and sizable project I can see myself doing it for that reason.

>But is it really appropriate to do this, to this extent especially, to programmers who wrote bad code? Programming relies on rational, careful cognitive consideration of problems. That's the opposite of what fear inspires. Fear-based "motivation" is lousy in general, and doubly lousy for open source software.

I don't follow why it's doubly lousy for software in general. Software has its fair share of opinionated debates that are more about differences of philosophy rather than careful cognitive consideration of problems. And as for it being the opposite of what fear inspires, I'm not sure I agree. The educational system world wide uses fear effectively and it seems to mostly work (despite whatever problems you may have with it), so I don't see what would make programming special in that regard.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#282
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that sufficient exasperation makes it understandable whether or not it is justified. Linus is human. Humans are not flawless. > There are plenty of open-source project leaders who deal with incorrigible people and do not talk this way. And a lot of people who "do not talk this way" are a lot worse by dealing with these kind of issues through backstabbing or veiled insults. While some are saint-like and nev…

I think Linus (and others) choose to stay verbally abusive because there they exist in a community that both facilitates and defends that poor behaviour. There is a choice to be made. The choice stems from the basic mindset: am I fundamentally ok with verbally abusing people around me, or should I try to stop doing that? I don't know what's in Linus' mind. Perhaps he is utterly incapable of never resorting to verbal…

In the same video interview where Linus famously gestured toward Nvidia, he also said that he believes people capable of being offended should be offended. I suppose one could think of it as a way of filtering out people who focus too much on the messenger and medium rather than the actual message.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better might be to provide links to the cases where he feels hard done by. Re: the app framework naming, there's some partial conversation involving Brian Foy at https://www.mail-archive.com/modules@perl.org/msg34595.html . It doesn't seem to merit nanoscopic's comments, so I wonder if there's more to the story or if nanoscopic is being unfair. I tried to find archives of the Grant McLean XML stuff, but cursory Googl…

I didn't provide a ton of details because I think it is important to be constructive and just make the point that people should be more caring and positive. I don't want or need to try to bash these people. All I am saying is that they were somewhat mean to me. It is my personal perspective. I'm not sure what anyone will get out of reading this stuff in detail. If you are so interested, I requested repeatedly to Bria…

Here's the relevant commit. https://github.com/andk/pause/commit/0e3ab7d88a3ff6a9ea72af0... The decision to remove the registered list had already been made in 2013 and I really don't think it was being used much anymore.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#285
post #280
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it wrong to want to change things? No. It's not wrong to not want to change them either. I like Linus. He delivers. Many people talk nice, but it's all bullshit.

> Many people talk nice, but it's all bullshit. Are you stating that you believe that there is a direct 1:1 correlation between people talking in a civil manner and people being "all bullshit"? Are you also stating that calling someone names when telling them they are wrong somehow adds credibility to opinion of the name-caller? What about political attack ads that spend all of their time smearing the person rather t…

Neither.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#286

Lennart specifically called out Gentoo; as a Gentoo user, I do want to speak up in defense of the Gentoo community. I will concede the point that Lennart has, by far, probably received more vitriol per-capita from the Gentoo community than any others. I'm not going to defend any of the personal attacks launched on him. However, Lennart writes very opinionated software, and the opinions it takes are more at clash with…

> Lennart writes very opinionated software

Glad to see someone finally mention that in this thread.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#287
post #285
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many people talk nice, but it's all bullshit. Are you stating that you believe that there is a direct 1:1 correlation between people talking in a civil manner and people being "all bullshit"? Are you also stating that calling someone names when telling them they are wrong somehow adds credibility to opinion of the name-caller? What about political attack ads that spend all of their time smearing the person rather t…

Neither.

Could you expand on the "all bullshit" part then because it comes across as saying that there isn't any point to being civil with people.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#288
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To summarize: The tech community has become weak because we have taken a look at ourselves and realized that many among us are brutish, brash, and generally all-around assholes. But since these people are highly skilled, we should feel that the fact that they are assholes should be swept under the rug and we should "just deal with it." I get that these things exist and that we have to deal with them (change doesn't h…

I don't agree with your summary. Physical weakness in my comparison is analogous to lack of technical skill or incorrectness in tech. It's orthogonal to being thick or thin skinned - one can be an uber powerlifter with a total > 1000lb who gets offended and whines when a coach says "your abs aren't strong enough, work them harder". I also don't believe it's wrong to want anything. I merely believe that all the potent…

I can understand that. On the same token, I see a lot of people that seem to celebrate "bluntness" as if it is 'proof' of something (e.g. skill, 'lack of bullshit', etc). I don't think that this is right, or an opinion that should be encouraged.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#289

This reminded me of the "This is Phil Fish: A case study in internet celebrity" video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w Phil Fish is an indie game developer, internet-famous for the game Fez. And "everybody" hates him. Though as the video explains, it's more complicated than that. The video is notably also as being referenced by Notch (creator of Minecraft) as part of the reason why he decided to go into s…

That video is Phil's friend defending him by ignoring reality and saying "you are wrong because I say so". Phil started getting hate because he exploited people, ripped them off, abused them and acted like he was some sort of genius for making a game he didn't even make, which won an award that was won because his investor owns the contest and judged the entries. The hate grew to massive portions mainly because of hi…

Can you provide any examples for that?
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