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Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

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Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#281

Post by tonyhb »

flyinglizard wrote: post #96

Look beyond this local issue, and you'll see how we're in the middle of a huge power shift. It used to be that businessmen like Musk had to lobby, pressure and bribe, now they just need to appeal directly to the public, completely bypassing the political system in the process. It hasn't started with Musk, of course. The most obvious display of such power was the website blackout that led to the SOPA repeal. That show…

> The public no longer believes politicians, but they all believe Zuckerberg, Page and Musk

People are given a lot of information from a lot of sources nowadays, which means they're better at analysing it and weeding out the bullshit(typically).

Your point assumes we're blindly following what they have to say without analysing it.

I can imagine a lot of people aren't. A lot of people may be annoyed with their rights or privacy taken away (SOPA), or laws being changed when it doesn't benefit them (this). At which point, people complain.

If any tech company tried to push a law that didn't benefit the public in an obvious way, I bet most people wouldn't like it.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#282

Post by bane »

Edmond wrote: post #278
bane wrote: post #233

The truth is, car dealerships, which are mostly locally owned, are a way for a state to boost revenue capture and generate jobs. In New Jersey, not being able to pump your own gas is the same deal. Look at the economics of a Tesla dealership, for every car sold in New Jersey, how much of that money stays in New Jersey? And let's be honest, being a car salesman is not the most lucrative or respectable of trades. The j…

>It sucks, but if you were a legislator in NJ, would you rather Tesla's profit went all out of state to Tesla, or if your citizens could get a crack at some of it and have it circulate around in the local economy for a bit. I was making a similar point earlier. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if over time we start seeing more laws passed to encourage more of the money citizens of states spend to stay in-state. I thin…

Right, it's actually the job of the legislature to try and pass laws and create regulations to advantage their market over external competitors -- even if that means creating local monopolies. It sucks that New Jersey has to think of California as a competitor (after all, aren't California and New Jersey domestic territories of the same country?), but resources are finite.

And if you, as a legislator, think bringing money and jobs into your state doesn't matter, you have another thing coming:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22attract+business+to+the+s...

You'll find endless concern from every state about how to attract businesses and jobs to their state. It's not a coincidence that Hyundai opens a manufacturing plant in Alabama instead of someplace cheaper or more recognizable.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/04/06/fin_alabama_put_...

The problem with New Jersey doing this vs. Alabama is that the mechanism for Alabama to get Hyundai is pretty direct and pretty clear. Offer incentives to Hyundai, get a plant and a couple hundred jobs (plus the indirect halo effect on the economy outside of the plant).

For New Jersey it just looks like they're protecting shady car dealers by generating an artificial monopoly. The optics on it are terrible, it looks corrupt and petty, and the public rationale "it helps the consumer" is clearly false, but the practice is pretty much the same.

There's absolutely nothing that prevents Tesla from setting up a franchised dealer network in New Jersey, selling their cars cheap to the dealers and then having the dealers keep a cut while generating jobs in the state. It's "spreading the wealth around" from CA to NJ a bit. The only thing that prevents Tesla from doing this is that Tesla wants to maximize the profit share they see from the car sales.

The thing is, because Tesla has been very public about it, they know there is room in that large 25% profit margin per vehicle (Honda makes about 15% per hybrid) to "share a little".

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#283

Post by doorhammer »

ams6110 wrote: post #256
doorhammer wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, I'm glad you mentioned points and carbs. Those are the two examples of systems I just don't want to have to screw with ever again. Carbs are great until something in the environment changes and they're not perfect anymore. I want MAF's, o2 sensors, etc, thanks. I think my favorite car was my late 80's toyota truck with a 22RE. For my taste (which would vary wildly for another person) it had the perfect blend of…

Toyota trucks of that era were great mechanically, and the 22RE was a great little engine, but they would rust out in no time. OK for the south but not a good choice for anyplace that salt is used.

Hmmm, I drove mine in St. Louis. It was there for at least a decade. I never had any major rust issues with that particular truck, but I was better to my vehicles at the time. There was some bubbling around the quarter panels, but nothing major. It was an 1987, and was pretty beat up, so I wasn't worried about it being perfect.

The thing with the toyota truck I noticed mostly, is that despite cosmetic flaws, it still ran great and was pretty sound functionally at 230k. I had a dodge dakota that fell apart around me and spun a bearing at 160k. The drivers side door hinges actually rusted completely out.

I had a 1987 MR2 in St. Louis for four or five years as well, and my friend had it for three or four before that. It had issues with the rear quarter panel as well, but otherwise was good.

All anecdotal, and the St. Louis winter isn't a Michigan winter or anything like that, but there's my experience fwiw

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#284

Post by kabdib »

dmarkow wrote: post #275
the_ancient wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

last time a saw a full service station I was 5 years old Get out a pump your own damn gas.... jeeze

It's the same in Oregon. You're not allowed to pump your own gas even if you want to.

Unless you're on a motorcycle. Then none of the attendants want to deal with you -- they hand you the gas pump nozzle and you do the filling.

I don't know what the party line is to justify the gas attendant rules. If it's "consumer safety" then it's bullshit.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#285

Post by sliverstorm »

npizzolato wrote: post #74
smackfu wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The easier it is to update software, the less important that it is bug-free.

Until that bug causes a car to drive unexpectedly into a wall in the interim time until you've sent out a patch. The importance of being bug-free is much more driven by the potential damage caused by a bug than how quickly you can update the software.

Right. So, what happens when you are the one in that car, the car that teaches them better?

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#286

Post by npizzolato »

tonyhb wrote: post #281
flyinglizard wrote: post #96

Look beyond this local issue, and you'll see how we're in the middle of a huge power shift. It used to be that businessmen like Musk had to lobby, pressure and bribe, now they just need to appeal directly to the public, completely bypassing the political system in the process. It hasn't started with Musk, of course. The most obvious display of such power was the website blackout that led to the SOPA repeal. That show…

> The public no longer believes politicians, but they all believe Zuckerberg, Page and Musk People are given a lot of information from a lot of sources nowadays, which means they're better at analysing it and weeding out the bullshit(typically). Your point assumes we're blindly following what they have to say without analysing it. I can imagine a lot of people aren't. A lot of people may be annoyed with their rights…

>People are given a lot of information from a lot of sources nowadays, which means they're better at analysing it and weeding out the bullshit(typically).

Or people find the version of the "truth" they most agree with and just go with that. Given the huge industry of politically-charged "news" organizations, I think there's a significant amount of people that are doing this instead (sadly).

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#287

Post by Edmond »

pawelk wrote: post #280
Edmond wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't with owning the Tesla but rather that the economic transaction involved in acquiring the Tesla would leave nothing to NJ (except perhaps sales tax). When you have a dealership, you have local folks working there thus some of the money that car buyers spend gets circulated locally, which would not be the case if all you have to do is point and click to get your car delivered. This is a serious concer…

> the economic transaction involved in acquiring the Tesla would leave nothing to NJ As I understand the sales will shift completely from local venues to point and click only after the laws in question come into power. The stores that are about to become galleries do employ local folks and a sales ban may imply reductions on sales-related positions, right?

I don't know if you are familiar with how car dealerships tend to be distributed but a gallery would not be an adequate replacement. Typically you have numerous dealerships in towns/cities, I suspect you won't have anywhere close to that many galleries.

In any case, issues like this I believe are just the beginning of a larger debate to come. I don't see how local economies are going to sit idly by and watch us do all our shopping on Amazon.com where the only part of the transaction's economic value that enters the local vicinity is perhaps the delivery truck, that is not sustainable.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#288

Post by joesmo »

oh_sigh wrote: post #249
vampirechicken wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time I was in NJ, the full-service gas there was the same price as the self-serve in suburban NY. Maybe that's changed, but given the hug number of commuters in NJ, I conclude it likely that holy hell would have been raised of full-serve was significantly more expensive.

States impose different taxes on their gas. Presumably if NJ allowed self-pump, those prices would be slightly lower. However, in the grand scheme of things, the eliminating the payroll costs from the gas price in NJ would barely have any impact. At a normal gas station which is neither busy nor desolate, an attendant may be able to serve, let's say, 30 cars an hour. If they each get $20 worth of gas, and the total c…

This doesn't take into account the missed sales when stations are closed, nor the cost to the community of having police officers police this (yes, they do even though the pumps shut off automatically).

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#289

Post by stcredzero »

ghshephard wrote: post #264
maratd wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with the spirit of your post and that of Mr. Musk, there's something missing here. Contrary to Mr. Musk's assertion of conspiracy, what seems to have happened here is that there were some unfortunate laws on the books that weren't being enforced. Various business interests (ie the car dealers) complained to the Motor Vehicle Commission. The MVC created a new regulation to reflect the laws already on the…

There are all sorts of laws on the books that we've agreed are idiotic and are no longer enforced. It's up to the executive to determine which those ones are, and, as time progresses, some laws become so outdated that no rational minded person would ever think of enforcing them. What if the law had suggested that Office and Automotive equipment could not be sold directly (perhaps harkening back to a time when the Lar…

There are all sorts of laws on the books that we've agreed are idiotic and are no longer enforced. It's up to the executive to determine which those ones are, and, as time progresses, some laws become so outdated that no rational minded person would ever think of enforcing them.

Europeans (mostly Germans) I've talked to about how we do this in the US shake their heads. These shenanigans along with the "speed limit+9mph" informal rule make them comment that the US is really a stealth police state.

EDIT: There's a precedent for "two sets of laws" in the US, some of the most prominent of which are related to civil rights and sexual orientation.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#290

Post by stcredzero »

bhandziuk wrote: post #227
FD3SA wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heartily believe there's a market for both. Compare a Macbook Pro with a custom built Linux desktop. The MBP is very user friendly, plug n play, and has very little customization capacity. The custom Linux desktop is an absolute tinkerer's paradise, with everything from hardware to software being open for customization. The car equivalent of these used to exist for daily drivers, but are now relegated mainly to clo…

But even for Linux, Ubuntu is trying really hard for you to not have to go into the command line. They would love for it to be a tinkerer's paradise but also usable. They want it to be a muscle car and a Tesla. Computers have the advantage of being both of those.

Computers have the advantage of being both of those.

They're still muscle cars. Tablets and phones have been making inroads, but the inmates still run the asylum.

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